[Davidzak64]

I find there's more flexibility when using a pre-amp. I can bypass it with a push of a button for a cleaner sound and tone contols if I desire.
If it sounds good to you, that's all that really matters.

 

[Rattle]

Pre amps always change the sound, I can see using one in a speaker system but not on headphones. I've never seen a preamp change anything for the better on a headphone chain. Infact it's usually worse. Always different than when it's not on the path.

 

[Strayngs]

Pre amps always change the sound, I can see using one in a speaker system but not on headphones. I've never seen a preamp change anything for the better on a headphone chain. Infact it's usually worse. Always different than when it's not on the path.

I'm not sure they always change the tonality of the sound but they definitely can and most likely will change the dynamics, soundstage, etc. And that sound will always be a detrimental change if It is not carefully selected to match gain and impedance requirements. It is definitely a way more challenging tasks to fit the preamp into the system. But if done well, the results are almost always remarkable in comparison with most other component changes in the system.

 

[chesebert]

You forgot the part where it makes your system sound better. That's a pretty important reason

I don’t even know how to explain this to you. Using a “preamp” with your headphone amp means you are going through two sets of source switches and two sets of pots, not even counting an extra set of cables that alter the sound. Either your dac doesn’t work well with your amp or something else is wrong with your system if you think going through double the source switches and pots make your music ”sound better“.

You do you.

 

[Strayngs]

I don’t even know how to explain this to you. Using a “preamp” with your headphone amp means you are going through two sets of source switches and two sets of pots, not even counting an extra set of cables that alter the sound. Either your dac doesn’t work well with your amp or something else is wrong with your system if you think going through double the source switches and pots make your music ”sound better“.

You do you.

You are an example of why I started this thread. “All you need is a quality dac and amp.“ you say. Both have a volume pot. The Dac will have an afterthought digital volume control in most cases that will be embarrassed in performance by a real preamp….and the volume pot in an amp … in most cases, is defeated if turned all the way up (Contact the designer to find out) or can be bypassed quite easily. So yes if properly done a preamp will sound better.

And another note of the original intention of this thread. This is talking about higher end set ups with high end dacs and amps. I would think you will agree that the dacs I have used in my system are quality. I have had a Elac DDP2, M2Tech Young Mk4, Rockna Wavelight and currently using Hifi Rose RS150B. My amps are Trafomatic Head 2, ampsandsound Bigger Ben Rev 2 and I have used probably 5-6 amps with a preamp which I no longer own because I left the headphone hobby for a season when I bought a home and had a 2 channel listening room. The reason I tell you my equipment is it meets your earlier requirements of a high quality dac and a properly designed amp. I doubt anyone would say otherwise unless they are against tubes but that is a preference thing. No one will say this stuff doesnt sound good on its own. We are simply talking about the fact that there is an added enhancement that is being ignored by this niche in the hifi hobby.

I have used a Rogue RP5 and RP7, a Allnic L7000 and currently a Canary C1300. All have different results with different amps. Synergy and properly matching is key. I have just ordered a Hattor Passive Preamp with the optional buffer because passive is the thing I havent tried yet. I do plan on trying the Trafomatic as a preamp too as it is rumored to be an excellent preamp, but that 26 db of gain is why I think it wont work for me … but I am excited to try. I have tried my stuff with and without preamps. When the stars align correctly in the hifi world …. The preamp is a huge improvement….but it must be properly done and involves a lot of self educating which is why it is rarely used in the headphone world…but they are missing Out.

 

[chesebert]

Big Ben has a $10 pot. Like I said get an amp with a better pot. No idea the input imp of the amp.

 

[Strayngs]

Big Ben has a $10 pot. Like I said get an amp with a better pot.

Trafomatic, Auris Nirvana, Wells Audio Dragon Level 2, Wells Audio Milo with Khozmo volume pot, Ifi Pro ICAN, Rogue RH5, I assume all of these fail your approval of quality LOL. I think you are just here to troll at this point … always going to be one of them in a discussion … never fails.

 

[chesebert]

If your rig sounds better with an additional “pre amp” then good for you. I have been there done that and it was a total waste of time once you get better gear. The “preamp” is just a tone control to fix something you don’t like about your rig.

Btw, you are suppose to set your dac to fixed line level at 2v/4v (SE/XLR) and not use any digital attenuation.

 

[Strayngs]

If your rig sounds better with an additional “pre amp” then good for you. I have been there done that and it was a total waste of time once you get better gear. The “preamp” is just a tone control to fix something you don’t like about your rig.

I originally got a preamp for my Voxative speakers which needed 2 sets of RCA outs which my dac did not have. It was just experimenting that led to the discovery of better sound…I was not searching for better sound because my sound was excellent even without it. It didnt work for you which is fine… but the ridiculous “dumb” statement followed by degrading of another guys system that you havent heard because your experience didnt work in your system is really unwelcome and puts you in the trolling category. At this point I will no longer feed the troll.

 

[chesebert]

It’s also hard to explain basic electronics principles to those who refuse to listen.

 

[KrauserX91]

I use the Bliss as pre amp to control voltage output of S3 and gain remote control, simple task that I don’t think can change the sound having S3+Bliss. But i can’t help but think in a preamp like Freya+ would add fun to the chain. There is nothing bad in have a tool to change parameters of your sound. Also, not all the people have the space and can afford many equipment to optimice multiple chains for each headphones like you.

 

[chesebert]

You generally add a pre-amp because at least one of the following is true:

- You need some way to control volume
- You need to drive very long cable runs
- You need additional gain
- Impedance optimization
- You want to avoid digital attenuation
- You want to tune the sound a certain way (the pre-amp can't add more information that isn't already provided by the source though)

1 is not an issue, 2-4 are rarely issues, 5 is not an issue, and 6 is totally up to you.

Properly designed headphone amp with good quality attenuator (stepped, high quality pot or ladder) can take care of 1 and 5. If you want to add flavor, that‘s a different matter.

@KrauserX91 Your needs fall under #6 (See above) and I agree it makes sense if you want to tune your sound or to "fine-tune" the volume if your amp has a stepped attenuator with limited steps (e.g., 24 steps and you need to use higher gain setting). Putting Bliss in front does degrade the sound and will add additional noise. Bliss does measure very well but I have no hands-on experience. Also their variable gain is an odd design choice but I guess you never get out of "low gain" anyway if you are using Bliss to drive the input of another headphone amp.

 

[Davidzak64]

Sometimes I like to salt and pepper my food, maybe some occasional Tabasco sauce . Other times it doesn't need any seasonings. That doesn't make it less enjoyable, Just different. To be able to shape the sound to your own taste is definitely a good thing.

 

[theveterans]

Big Ben has a $10 pot. Like I said get an amp with a better pot. No idea the input imp of the amp.

Or set the pot to max (to have same resistors in and ground and essentially make a full passthrough) and put a nice preamp of your choice. Schiit Saga as a pre to my headphone amp is such a delight to use! I get full remote control so I can even relax on my couch without ever leaving it to increase and decrease the volume!

 

[paradoxper]

Because it’s stupid and a waste of money.

It's kind of a big deal.