[ProtegeManiac]

 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougD /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

(5) automotive mix (also FLAC)

 

What would be different on the automotive mix? Problems in a car are caused by not owning a Maclaren F1, which is for the most part fixed by using a time alignment processor, which adds time delays to the driver side tweeter, driver side midwoofer, passenger side tweeter and passenger side midwoofer to all sync with each other and the subwoofer in the trunk.

 

As for FLAC, you have one problem there - how many car audio systems can run FLAC? Not even ///////ALPINE's music servers can read FLAC save for the latest F1 Status, same thing with the equivalent Pioneer. Sony just one-upped both of them by introducing DSD compatibility. Still, none of these are stock systems - AFAIK even the B&W in Jaguars can't read FLAC, let alone whatever you find on most cars.

 

Even then, the bigger problem isn't FLAC vs 320kbps, but the fact that these are Jaguars, Mercs, Toyotas, Hondas, BMWs - none of them are Maclaren F1's to the point that none of the current Maclarens are like the F1. You still have a much bigger problem with the fact that you're not sitting between two speaker cabinets with the midwoofer right next to the tweeter on the baffle and a sub between them - you're sitting with one tweeter closest to your head then a midwoofer far below it then the tweeter and midwoofer at the other side of the car plus a sub behind you (unless you own a Nissan with a Bose system with the sub on the dashboard). No record company can come up with an "automotive mix" that can take all that into account - at best the new Alpine receivers have custom time alignment settings based on their database of later car models. The problem with that however is that the location of the tweeters, midwoofers, and subwoofer aren't the only things that affect imagine and tonal balance, but the angles. You need to put more toe in on tweeters if you get reflections off the windshield for example, but the Alpine database only takes into account stock locations (and even then won't really help that much if you have issues with reflections) so you have to mount it at an angle wherever the factory mounted it in the first place, at best.

 

Hence, if you really want to have correct imagine across the dash like you're listening on a couple of good studio monitors, you really need to set it up properly. Install the tweeters and hell even the midwoofer at the correct angles to reduce reflections and center the image as best as possible, then you use the time alignment DSP feature to fine-tune that. It doesn't need to always be manual inputs - my processor for use in my next car has an Audyssey-based calibration system (ie similar to the one on Denon HT receivers, but for active car systems).

 

Here's an example - that tweeter is angled so the vocals are just off-center, the DSP applies time alignment details based on distance inputs (not actual delay in microseconds), but even though that doesn't take into account the angle (though location is custom) it helps center the image. The only problem with these is that I chose these specifically so I can choose to cut them lower to help raise the soundstage up to eye level, but soon realized that if I cut below 2.5khz enough of the midrange comes out of them that the near side tweeter pulls the image over to that side. My DSP has no control to individually vary just one tweeter, only the tweeter vs midrange vs sub or left vs right, so I just cut it at 4khz, 6dB/octave.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougD /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

(2) 5.1 mix

 

If only they actually did 5.1 not as surround but with primarily the guitars in the outer speakers, and then the two inner speakers+sub will handle the drum and bass, then the vocals on a center channel. But then again, if the stereo recording was properly done and your room is treated, you can find a toe-in angle that will put the guitars farther out without pulling the cymbals away from the rest of the drums.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougD /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

(4) FLACs (redbook or better)

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DVD and BluRays have the capacity. Shouldn't be a problem from a technical point-of-view.

 

From a technical point of view that's really not a problem, you can order the disc and rip it. The problem really is legal - the movie industry works differently from the music industry, and they're actually more worried about piracy (no matter how much people make it look like Lars Ulrich just needs to buy another gold bathtub) and that's why you can't easily rip video discs (with audio it's harder to fight it because people take music along). At the same time while BluRays come with a download code there's one problem - most of them are designed more for casual viewers than serious HT enthusiasts so some of them don't have 5.1 on the download version.

 

I actually prefer buying discs and ripping them (then archiving the discs later unless I need to use a CDP for some reason), and I also get album art, but the problem on my end is our predatory Customs agents. International shipping on each disc is nearly $10 already and then if I bundle them Customs here bully people and say it's "retail quantity" even if it's five different CDs. I don't have the time during office work hours to drag the Ombudsman in every time I buy discs, so I just pay for the license to play the digital copy. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougD /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

(3) headphone mix

 

If Binaural gets popular enough then yeah at some point we won't have to fiddle with Crossfeed. That means that whatever albums are out there now on Binaural need to sell a lot more copies. This is the one that's most likely to succeed.

 

[DougD]

 

 

What would be different on the automotive mix? Problems in a car are caused by not owning a Maclaren F1, which is for the most part fixed by using a time alignment processor, which adds time delays to the driver side tweeter, driver side midwoofer, passenger side tweeter and passenger side midwoofer to all sync with each other and the subwoofer in the trunk.

 

As for FLAC, you have one problem there - how many car audio systems can run FLAC? Not even ///////ALPINE's music servers can read FLAC save for the latest F1 Status, same thing with the equivalent Pioneer. Sony just one-upped both of them by introducing DSD compatibility. Still, none of these are stock systems - AFAIK even the B&W in Jaguars can't read FLAC, let alone whatever you find on most cars.

 

<snip snip snip> to avoid repeating everything

 

 
Wow, you took this more seriously than I expected, cuz the obvious difficulty is that the music industry has no history of providing multiple formats of tunes for the convenience/benefit of consumers, and that is probably an insurmountable challenge.
 
I have NO expectation this will really happen. But .... maybe ... as streaming access to music increases, somebody innovative in the music industry will come to think that bundling mix-versions together could be a value-added approach that would encourage some segment/s of the consumer market to buy physical product. (And then overcome the seemingly irresistible industry thinking that one package with 5 mixes justifies 5 times the normal price.) 
 
Re Mix for Automobiles ... having a more plebian point of view, I was thinking that most people who hang out at HF probably use a DAP connected via lineout or BlueTooth. Therefore the main feature of the Automotive Mix would be a reduced DNR due to need to overcome a higher ambiant noise level in a vehicle while moving. Any customized audio system engineering for your fancy car systems, such as you discuss, would still be in the loop, as post-source digital signal processing (DSP). 
 
re Binaural ... traditional binaural recordings compensate for the lack of "room ambiance" when playing music on headphones by embedding room ambiance from an actual room INTO THE RECORDING. While that obviously works, whatever limitations of the recording room and "seat location" are then forever locked in the original source, and when you think about it, that's not necessarily something you'd like to do, if there were better alternatives. And with current tech, typically they EITHER do recordings in a std music studio, or binaural, but not both simultaneously as that's not feasible with a recording studio setup. 
 
But now we potentially do have better alternatives. DSP has vastly improved in the past 20 years, and the ability to do crossfeed/HRTF adjustments seem to be getting close to excellent. Additionally, Dolby ATMOS is a technology that could be used to deliver multiple mixes from one singular collection of discrete sound objects. We think of ATMOS in terms of sound mixes for movies, but there is no reason it needs to be limited to that. Having 64 or more discrete sound objects on a recording of a symphonic orchestra could be pretty darn amazing.
 
 
My multi-mix concept assumes that 95% of the engineering effort goes into the std stereo mix, or the 5.1 if that's the focus, and the new variants are quickly generated without much additional human intervention. So those would be adequate, but not really optimal/optimized. My thought is that the value-added in the marketplace wouldn't support a lot of costly extra work. 
 
Thanks for playing the Speculation Game with me.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Re Mix for Automobiles ... having a more plebian point of view, I was thinking that most people who hang out at HF probably use a DAP connected via lineout or BlueTooth. Therefore the main feature of the Automotive Mix would be a reduced DNR due to need to overcome a higher ambiant noise level in a vehicle while moving. Any customized audio system engineering for your fancy car systems, such as you discuss, would still be in the loop, as post-source digital signal processing (DSP). 

 

You can deal with the ambient noise without using a special mix for the recording. For one, Dynamat (or any other sound deadening material for mas-loading) where you can - wide thin metal panels vibrate easily whether due to the engine or the speaker near it. In my car the most audible noise was the door latch mechanism rattling, plus if you're standing outside you can see the door panel vibrating and yet I can't hear any bass inside. Dynamat on the outer and inner panels, plus foam wrapped around the metal rod on the latch, dealt with all those. The craziest I've seen is a guy who poured concrete into the doors of his Mitsubishi SUV. I'd reinforce the plastic interior panel with fiberglass, but I'm never going to do anything like that - there's so much weight on the doors he needs to have the swing mechanism serviced every year.

 

Similarly you need to choose the right kind of tyre. It doesn't have to be whatever kind of tyre used by Mercedes and Aston Martin (ie like Yokohama AVS Sport and AVS DB), but there are cheaper alternatives that are still quieter than what most cars roll out of the dealership with. Also, keep the exhaust stock; if you're going to significantly increase intake pressure and volume, get a muffler that's relatively quiet and has a low freq resonance, like the GMedallion if you're using a Jap or Korean car.

 

Also take good care of your engine, this way it will idle smoothly, and heck get a car that idles very smoothly - doesn't need to be a BMW with an inline6 (much less a Rolls Royce with a V12) but avoid one with a badly designed long-stroke V6 for example. Also get a car with a good drag coefficient - this doesn't just save fuel or help you go faster, but a sleeker car will likely also not have as much of a problem with wind noise. That said, chances are these cars are sports cars, and the hump on the instrument cluster is a lot bigger problem in all situations, so consider that as well. I drive a Protege and all the way down to the pre-tablet interface (like on the new Miata) Mazdas retained the sports car-style interior with that gigantic instrument cluster hood that makes for a lot of reflections on the driver's side. The 2006 Civic on the other hand took a cue from the S2000's high tech display (which was based on the CBR's - specifically, the digital tach)  and used a two section cluster, moving the hood forward while keeping it relatively lower. The Panoz Esperante however won't have that problem with the central cluster (not like you use your eyes rather than you ears when shifting anyway), but that's a convertible so it's pointless - there is however the Yaris/Vios, but not anymore  as they went for a more conventional layout on the latest model. Boo.

 

Ultimately, when moving you really won't be able to keep all the noise out barring a land barge with enough sound deadening like a Rolls Royce or Maybach, and what's more, you probably don't have a chaeuffeur anyway so concentrate on driving. All the best bits of a car audio system is meant to keep you sane in traffic, not headbanging to Highway to Hell in ways that will literally have you driving down a highway to hell.

 

 

[JMS]

Great examples of attempts in this direction so far in this thread. Another example is the AKG N90Q, which tries to do this in an all-in-one package, with the measurement system built right into the headphone.