[cosmopragma]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Everyone?

Yes, seems so, but there's always a last resort.
Just question the validity of DBTs and drive the sceptics crazy this way.

 

[Arainach]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Everyone?

Everyone. A series of truly double-blind, repeated tests, on multiple subjects, etc. has always failed. If it hadn't, someone would have claimed the million bucks by now.

 

[Sovkiller]

I suggest also to divide the forums into tube lovers vs. solid state lovers, and another vinyl lovers vs. CD lovers...we all have seen very good and out of hands discussions in those two topics as well, this way we will have even less problems.....

And in a few years on the road we could divide them further, for example the tubes in OTL vs. transformer coupled, the SS into OPamps vs. discrete, the LP lovers by speed (33-1/3rpm, 45rpm, 78rpm) and the CD lovers by format (SACD, DVD-A, HDCD, etc...) and in ten years we will have a good head-fi monologue, bravo that is the spirit!!! In which you can say the stupid thing you want, and nobody will argue with you, as you will ahve your own place to state your opinion as well...Of course we will not need moderators then...

 

[yotacowboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosmopragma /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes, seems so, but there's always a last resort. Just question the validity of DBTs and drive the sceptics crazy this way.

No, actually i question the statement that everyone has failed a single-blind.

Show me proof! Show me data!

 

[yotacowboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arainach /img/forum/go_quote.gif Everyone. A series of truly double-blind, repeated tests, on multiple subjects, etc. has always failed. If it hadn't, someone would have claimed the million bucks by now.

Show me the conclusive proof!

I want to see objective, qualified and rigorously collected data. Seriously. Post it.

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

it'd be a simple matter to just do a single double-blind test to scientific standards and shut up all the skeptics.

As someone who has paid the National Research Council in Ottawa to do hundreds of DBTs on loudspeakers, I know for a fact that it's not "simple" to do it properly.

Have you yourself ever organized and done any real DBTs? It's easy for people to flippantly tell others to "do a DBT", yet these same people are most often unwilling to do it themselves, and in most cases, they're unwilling to recreate the listening environment (hardware and software) the non-skeptic they're challenging, used to come to his conclusions.

And the trolling accusations are not about who's opinion is right or who's is wrong, what makes the most logical or scientific sense, or how easy it would be to prove by doing a DBT .... it's about common courtesy and not ruining other people's enjoyment by trolling and thread crapping, because you happen to be on a mission.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif In fact, it is a lot of work. Why, because although you are unable to see them, we have deleted many of these off-topic, thread-derailing, troll posts so that the discussion could carry on. In some of the more extreme cases, when the thread erupted into a complete flame war, we've removed the thread. But here's one example for you that I've taken the time to un-delete a dozen or so posts, to show exactly what I'm talking about. A member has taken a lot of time and effort to write his opinions of various power cords. A large number of members express interest and wish to further discuss the results and share information, then at post #24, in comes the non-believer, once again starting up the never ending argument and derailing the thread...changing it from a discussion about a selection of cables to a "cables don't/can't possibly make a difference argument. Again, post #24 and many others in this thread were previously deleted, but I've restored them in this instance to give you an example. Sorry, but I'm not about to go through dozens of others just like it, where we've attempted to save the thread and keep the discussion on topic by deleting the off topic, derailing posts, just to prove an obvious point to you. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/its-done-power-cord-shoot-out-22-power-cords-reviewed-219202/ So that's my real problem is it? I see you subscribe to the conspiracy theory. If that was my problem, and we were simply trying to censor skeptics to protect advertisers .... why is it that these threads you've listed are even here? Why haven't they been removed or "censored", as some people like to accuse us of doing? How will starting a separate skeptics forum, specifically meant to acomodate these exact type of threads, solve my problem? Where's the censorship there? I very much resent your insinuation that my previous post was a lie, when it was the complete and honest truth. WE WANT TO ALLOW BOTH SIDES TO BE ABLE TO ENJOY DISCUSSIONS THAT INTEREST THEM, AND FOR BOTH SIDES TO BE ABLE TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND THEIR OPINIONS/BELIEFS ON THIS CONTENTIOUS ISSUE. AT THE SAME TIME, WE DON'T WANT ONE GROUP SPOILING ANOTHER GROUP'S DISCUSSION AND ENJOYMENT OF THEIR HOBBY BY REGULARLY INTERUPTING THEIR DISCUSSIONS BY CHIMING IN LIKE A BROKEN RECORD TO TELL THEM WHAT THEY BELIEVE IS WRONG. WHAT CAN BE MORE OPEN OR FAIR THAN THAT?. SKEPTICS ARE NOT BEING CENSORED, THEY'RE BEING PREVENTED FROM TROLLING AND RUINING NON-SKEPTIC'S DISCUSSIONS ... AS THEY HAVE BEEN DOING REGULARLY FOR SOME TIME NOW. The "no DBT" rule was originally created in an attempt to prevent this very same thing, but we've realized that that was unfair to the skeptic's side. So we intend to make it fair. I hope this clarifies things for you

Thanks for your efforts. I do in fact see your point, and i didn't say there are no threads where a sceptic is pulling the topic from "subjective comutation" to basic discussion.

But i'm sorry, i completely fail to see something like this:

Quote:

continuously derailing

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As soon as someone posts a cable review

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it ruins every cable-related discussion thread that gets started

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each and every cable related thread that gets started

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continuously ruining discussions

That is simply exaggeragated to a almost ridicuosly extend.

For the "conspircy theory", please read my answer to cosmopragma. I'm not accusing you of beeing the the devil, just to be biased.

As for your intention to keep the discussion open, the "no DBT"-rule just has been costing you a good amount of credibility for every sceptical beeing interested in the discussion. I don't think you should be too amazed when people question your decisions and consider maybe financial or other interests beeing involved in your strategies.

For the "why would we set up a sceptics forum"-argument:

As long as you and your staff are encouraging members for talking about "kiddy pool" and other derogatory terms, you don't have to ask yourself why people expect to get excluded with the purpose of beiing not heard anymore, when apparently all you plan to do is set up a exposed platform for discussing the themes that do piss you off so much.

 

[Sovkiller]

We all know that Headfi has a lot of talented people, manufacturers, a lot of members with excelent gear, and good cables, money is not an object, and the most important thing, a lot fo claimed golden ears...OTOH we at least make a yearly event in which we all get together, right?

Well I propose instead fo a conference, or a DIY workshop, why not implementing a completelly scientific, and statistical based, valid DBT using all the help we can from all those fellows headfiers, and run for a God darn time a well implemented and completelly accepted by both fields, Double Blind Test ourselves, this will set us ahead of the world, and ahead of the other forums...AND WILL END THE DISCUSSIONS HERE OR THERE FOR LIFE, IT WILL BE SIMPLER, MORE EFFECTIVE AND WILL OFFER A RESULT THAT BOTH FIELDS WILL ACCEPT...

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

As long as you and your staff are encouraging members for talking about "kiddy pool" and other derogatory terms, you don't have to ask yourself why people expect to get excluded with the purpose of beiing not heard anymore, when apparently all you plan to do is set up a exposed platform for discussing the themes that do piss you off so much.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

Sovkiller: Go for it! Organize it! The ironic thing about all this, is that I'm a skeptic myself. But I'm also able to accept the fact that there are thousands of intelligent audiophiles who disagree with my opinions, and I feel very strongly that they deserve to have discussion amongst themselves about areas of the hobby that interest them without having their threads spoiled by an opposing group who follow them around and challenge their beliefs on a regular basis. Yes Vol, a regular basis ... yes, there are times when not every thread has been trolled, but there have been periods of time when practically every cable thread has been trolled .... usually by the same handful of people. Besides, trolling, thread crapping, off-topic derailing, is wrong ... even once. And when the same small group of individuals does it over and over again, I call that continuously.

There is no doubt that the cable skeptic/non-skeptic debate has been going on for years. We have seen many, many perfectly good threads turn into useless flame wars whenever the two sides bump heads. Until Sovkiller proves the skeptics 100% correct by setting up a scienfically sound DB Testing facility that every audiophile who hears differences in cables, in the world, has the opportunity to use, these arguments, flame wars, ruined threads, and resulting bad feelings will continue unless something is done. So we're trying to do something and we're trying to be fair. Sovkiller, go ahead and make sarcastic comments about it, but the fact is we don't have this same problem to anywhere near the same degree with tubes vs. solid state or vinyl vs. cd. If we did, we'd probably take your advice and attempt to keep the warring factions separated as well.

All I know is that we try to keep the place friendly, and it's not friendly when one group keeps ruining another group's fun by causing the same argument over and over again....however much they feel they are right or their cause is noble. For those who don't like "friendly" or "orderly" or who feel this makes things too artificial or too censored, I"m sorry, but that's the way it is. There are plenty of other sites where bullies rule, and if anyone enjoys giving and taking flames, insults, and foul language, and letting the mob drive the mild and meek or simply the refined and polite away, then I suggest this isn't the place for them and that they spend their time there.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Show me the conclusive proof! I want to see objective, qualified and rigorously collected data. Seriously. Post it.

From the observers POV, this cable fight has been going on since the very day one hifi-cables appeared on market. Meaning many many years. From what I have gathered, ALL reported DBTs have been negative. Why? I have yet to see a single DBT where person has managed to tell the difference. Why is this? So skeptics have their proof, have had for many years, but I want to see proofs from believers side also that would crush the skeptics proof of cables or make it invalid. All these tens of years, I presume some DBT test would have gone 'right' and differences have been noticeable, but why not? Or have I been missing something badly? Again, this is from observers POV, who is leaning to skeptics side more and more each day...

 

[Sovkiller]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif From the observers POV, this cable fight has been going on since the very day one hifi-cables appeared on market. Meaning many many years. From what I have gathered, ALL reported DBTs have been negative. Why? I have yet to see a single DBT where person has managed to tell the difference. Why is this? So skeptics have their proof, have had for many years, but I want to see proofs from believers side also that would crush the skeptics proof of cables or make it invalid. All these tens of years, I presume some DBT test would have gone 'right' and differences have been noticeable, but why not? Or have I been missing something badly? Again, this is from observers POV, who is leaning to skeptics side more and more each day...

[size=xx-large]GOOD STUFF!!![/size]


And on top the skeptics are the worng ones, that need to be "secluded" into a new subforum, the logic goes out of the window here!!!!!

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbriant /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

I'm talking about markl talking about the sceptics beeing a bunch od unexperienced youngsters, whose motivation for participating here is their wish to justify their inadequate finacial capabilites, and Wmcmanus applauding to it.

 

[yotacowboy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif From the observers POV, this cable fight has been going on since the very day one hifi-cables appeared on market. Meaning many many years. From what I have gathered, ALL reported DBTs have been negative. Why? I have yet to see a single DBT where person has managed to tell the difference. Why is this? So skeptics have their proof, have had for many years, but I want to see proofs from believers side also that would crush the skeptics proof of cables or make it invalid. All these tens of years, I presume some DBT test would have gone 'right' and differences have been noticeable, but why not? Or have I been missing something badly? Again, this is from observers POV, who is leaning to skeptics side more and more each day...

Ok. one more time.

It's a simple question:

Where is the data? show me!

If you've seen or read something that shows, conclusively, that every single-blind experiment has failed to show any difference in cables, I'd like to see it. show me the data. I'm starting to lose track of how many times I've personally asked for this information here... call me Johnny-5, cause I need input.

objective data. that's all I'm asking for.

 

[MaZa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by yotacowboy /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ok. one more time. It's a simple question: Where is the data? show me! If you've seen or read something that shows, conclusively, that every single-blind experiment has failed to show any difference in cables, I'd like to see it. show me the data. I'm starting to lose track of how many times I've personally asked for this information here... call me Johnny-5, cause I need input. objective data. that's all I'm asking for.

I know internet isnt 100% reliable, far from it. But where was the website again where this very subject had been handled. Telling when people started to turn their attention to cables, both hifi-companies and hifists. The article was very long, handling tests from several hifi-magazines etc... I lost the bookmark after I built my new computer couple of weeks ago, but I guess some of you skeptics still have it?

I give you that it isnt THE proof, (quite few of the stuff in internet is) but still a damn good one in comparison to the believers side which I have seen NONE. Untill now perhaps? I ask YOU the same question, do you have a proof that there is NOTHING in the claims skeptics have been saying and prooving tens of years? Have they been mumbling nothing but empty words all this time?

I give a big kudos to slwiser so far, he atleast tried something. He PMd me the theory how different materials might affect the travel of different frequencies, the article which he soon posted here too, but was bit brushed aside by skeptics from what I have noticed (tsk tsk...). However, mathematic stuff like that is total hebrew for me, and I sort of hoped someone with bigger knowledge of physics or electricity would have studied it and say if there is any truth in it, or if the difference is in 0.00000000000001 margin. (read, almost unmeasurable and definetly unheardable) HE did try to give me some proof, although it was undecipherable for me and I thank you for trying objectively to defend believers side, but translation and valuation is in order.

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

As long as you and your staff are encouraging members for talking about "kiddy pool" and other derogatory terms, you don't have to ask yourself why people expect to get excluded with the purpose of beiing not heard anymore, when apparently all you plan to do is set up a exposed platform for discussing the themes that do piss you off so much.

I don't recall encouraging members for talking about "kiddy pool". Who's exaggerating now? And thanks again for letting me know what I'm trying to do....."apparently, all you plan to do is set up an exposed platform for discussing the themes that do piss you off so much" I'm still a little unclear with this accusation/assumption of yours, but I thought I'd made myself fairly clear as to why we intend to set up a separate forum for skeptics. It has absolutely nothing to do with a theme that "pisses me off so much" and everything to do with a small group of people on a mission, regularly derailing and disrupting other members discussions by taking their friendly, hobbyist discussion off topic and turning it into the same repetitive, never-ending argument. How many times do I have to repeat this?

Quote:

Quote: Originally Posted by mbriant I'm afraid I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I'm talking about markl talking about the sceptics beeing a bunch od unexperienced youngsters, whose motivation for participating here is their wish to justify their inadequate finacial capabilites, and Wmcmanus applauding to it.

That sounds like the opinions of two out of 66,000 members....posted in one thread out of hundreds of thousands of threads. I'd hazard a guess that whatever was said, was said out of the frustration one gets when they are fed up with being called (or insinuated) that they are delusional or liars or foolish for the umteenth time. It's been said again and again ( again, because it's true), every moderator here was and is a member first. They spend hours of their time, as volunteers, helping to keep order. They were chosen as moderators because they've shown they care about the hobby and the site, and have exhibited a certain level of rationality. They are not prohibited from participating in discussions or enjoying themselves as members by being a moderator. They too get angry or frustrated at times, for the same reasons any regular member might get angry or frustrated. Sometimes they take a side on an issue and then the issue turns ugly. When that happens, we ask, if possible, that the moderator step back and not perform mod functions in that thread. Sometimes it doesn't work out that way, but not very often. Pulling out one instance of a moderator agreeing with a side, shouldn't be held up as an example of censorship or intimidation (if that's what you're getting at) Did he ban or threaten to ban anyone for disagreeing with him?

If you look through the threads, I'm certain you'll also find more than one poster accusing non-skeptics of being delusional or sheep trying to justify spending large amounts of money on cables. That's insulting as well. Just think, once we put an end to this constant head-butting, in an argument that never ends, we won't have to listen to opinions we disagree with or be insulted .... unless we want to by intentionally reading the appropriate forum.