[Malcyg]

This may be controversial and I am posting it out of frustration so, if my opinion offends you, I apologise and suggest you just move on to another thread. I have found this particular forum very useful over the years in terms of following trends and developments and gathering information. I have also tried to pass on information gleaned where I can and I have enjoyed many exchanges with some very decent and knowledgable people, but it seems to be increasingly evolving into endless debate and arguments over relatively trivial things to which there will never be a ‘right answer’ because there are just too many variables involved behind people’s subjective opinions.

The two main problem categories I’d classify as ‘To do, or not to do’ and ‘Mine is Best!’

In terms of my saying there will often never be a ‘right answer to the topics being argued over, consider this. A few years ago, my wife showed me a photo of a dress and asked me what colour it was. I replied white and gold. She said ‘no way, it’s blue and black’. Apparently, the photo had provoked fierce debate and argument and people fell largely into two main camps, just as my wife and I had, but there were other fringe groups on top of that. The photo to me illustrates how and why there can never be agreement on certain things.

 

[Ciggavelli]

the sound science vs subjective experience debate has heated up since ASR reviewed the Chord M-Scaler and DAVE. I’ve noticed it too. But, it’s a debate that extends to all of the headphone community (here and elsewhere). Then we of course have the “cable debate” and then the “needing a certain amount of power” debate. It’s where discussion has evolved to for whatever reason. If I was a new person here, I’d be very confused and wouldn’t know how to sift through the conflicting opinions. It’s an unfortunate reality.

When one side says you can’t trust your ears and the other side says you can, what is a new person to think?

I don’t think the debates are going away, and message boards often devolve into arguments, in general (I see it on other forums too, outside of audio). It’s probably a reflection of society.

I think one just has to use their own personal judgment, find other posters that like similar musical genres and just go from there.

 

[Malcyg]

I agree, but it frustrates me. I don’t use social media but my wife has Facebook and I accept that debate on here is moderate by comparison!

In fairness, I have been laid up with a stomach bug and not eaten anything at all in four days, so I am more grumpy than usual today and more easily frustrated. The thing is that the great positive about this forum is that there is such a wide range of people on here with very different backgrounds, systems and experience with a wealth of useful information to pass on. I have learnt a lot over the years and it is important because getting the most from our equipment is not as easy as most of us would wish and, probably, assumed it might be originally. It’s just a shame that we have to wade through increasing pages of chatter to pick out the nuggets of information. Some of it seems intentially aimed at stimulating circular argument imo. It is truly like looking for needles in a haystack nowadays.

 

[audiocroissant]

"Scientist" side: blind studies show that there is minimal or no difference between component x and y.
"Audiophile" side: I hear a distinct difference between x and y in regular listening context.

X/Y variables = DAC, cables, amp
Factors: unique hearing, age, poor listening memory, psychosomatic factors (mood), biases (expectation bias)

If we grant the scientist's claim that the poor fallible human cannot hear the difference in sound but "hears" it when it comes out of an expensive shiny box/headphone/cable, does this negate their subjective experience if they consistently enjoy it more than the cheaper alternative and they think they hear differences (regardless of whether it's not an exclusive product of our hearing)?

Don't think so. Science should explain phenomena, not become a dogma used by people to castigate others as deluded idiots because their experiences don't fit into the mould. I am a proponent of experimentation. One should be able to try things themselves - if you enjoy your music more when it comes from an expensive eye candy, you should be able to do so and you should be able to describe your experience without censure or consideration of the "snake oil" being sold. The problematic part that triggers the "scientist" side is when assertions are made that go beyond subjective observations and in pseudo-scientific explanation as why X is better than Y objectively.

I think forums like this one should disclaim very clearly that this is a subjective hobby and financial decisions shouldn't be made blindly without accounting for the consequences. The good news is that one can return or resell a product they don't like so I think some of those criticisms are a bit over-exaggerated.

 

[Natesdailies]

This may be controversial and I am posting it out of frustration so, if my opinion offends you, I apologise and suggest you just move on to another thread. I have found this particular forum very useful over the years in terms of following trends and developments and gathering information. I have also tried to pass on information gleaned where I can and I have enjoyed many exchanges with some very decent and knowledgable people, but it seems to be increasingly evolving into endless debate and arguments over relatively trivial things to which there will never be a ‘right answer’ because there are just too many variables involved behind people’s subjective opinions.

The two main problem categories I’d classify as ‘To do, or not to do’ and ‘Mine is Best!’

In terms of my saying there will often never be a ‘right answer to the topics being argued over, consider this. A few years ago, my wife showed me a photo of a dress and asked me what colour it was. I replied white and gold. She said ‘no way, it’s blue and black’. Apparently, the photo had provoked fierce debate and argument and people fell largely into two main camps, just as my wife and I had, but there were other fringe groups on top of that. The photo to me illustrates how and why there can never be agreement on certain things.

Fun topic I'll bite. To give you my clinical view (pun intended) some hobbies such as cars can be compared more objectively. I.e. horsepower, torque.

To refer to your example, some people are colourblind, phone and computer screens vary in colour temperature.

With audio, while there are some objective measurements (such as graphs and power) most of the discussions are about how we hear because its a human sensory reaction. Each persons ear geometry, music preferences, perception of value & diminishing returns vary.

Why do we argue? Because its part of our programming. Some people want to discover the best audio gear within a certain price point, some want to defend their purchases, others like to argue just because.

 

[Malcyg]

Some people want to discover the best audio gear within a certain price point, some want to defend their purchases, others like to argue just because.

I think it ultimately boils down to this. I fall into the first category and don’t much care for the other two.

I suppose it depends upon what you think forums like this are for - apart from the obvious marketing aspects. For me, it is all about discovery and information gathering. For some, it seems to be about the banter and social networking. I can appreciate that, I just wish I could filter it out. If there is a way to do that, please let me know.

Regarding the dress, it caused a stir globally at the time and, from memory, people were generally fairly evenly split as to which they thought it was. The original photo was taken in the shade which did cast a bluish hue and part of the perceived differences may have been how people’s brains tried to compute that added information. The photo I posted above attempts to portray the actual colours alongside what a fair proportion of people saw.

It’s not unreasonable to suspect that hearing may differ just as widely from one person to another and arguments over what is best just seem futile to me. If someone likes what they have, good for them.

 

[up late]

 

[bobmysterious]

Things that people take seriously just have this dynamic built in. For example, when speaking about handguns 9mm vs. 45 ACP has been raging for the last 30 years at least. Capacity vs. stopping power. Both sides are correct in their arguments, there is no right answer unless specific circumstantial requirements are placed on it. Both valid. No philosophically correct answer, however.

 

[Malcyg]

Very good. I liked this as well - "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." Very apt.

 

[KPzypher]

If only we all made it more about the music and less about the gear......

I know it's wishful thinking. Because if that were true, I wouldn't be hoarding 30 headphones like I'm doing.

 

[WoodyLuvr]

This may be controversial and I am posting it out of frustration so, if my opinion offends you, I apologise and suggest you just move on to another thread. I have found this particular forum very useful over the years in terms of following trends and developments and gathering information. I have also tried to pass on information gleaned where I can and I have enjoyed many exchanges with some very decent and knowledgable people, but it seems to be increasingly evolving into endless debate and arguments over relatively trivial things to which there will never be a ‘right answer’ because there are just too many variables involved behind people’s subjective opinions.

The two main problem categories I’d classify as ‘To do, or not to do’ and ‘Mine is Best!’

In terms of my saying there will often never be a ‘right answer to the topics being argued over, consider this. A few years ago, my wife showed me a photo of a dress and asked me what colour it was. I replied white and gold. She said ‘no way, it’s blue and black’. Apparently, the photo had provoked fierce debate and argument and people fell largely into two main camps, just as my wife and I had, but there were other fringe groups on top of that. The photo to me illustrates how and why there can never be agreement on certain things.

I most definitely disagree with everything you have said. Your opinion is ill-formed and subjectively weak. You misspelled "knowledgeable". Many of us have the right answers you are just too thick to comprehend them. What is frustrating is that you are posting this! That dress is beige and cream colored you blind bat!

Sorry, I simply couldn't resist. Just joking!

Have a great day!

 

[Spareribs]

I’m too lazy to read any posts in this thread but arguing is arguably a good thing. Life is short so you might as well say something before you pass away.

 

[elee703]

It's the internet.....it's ultimate opportunity with minimal circumstance. I'm guessing if people were face to face, like 80% of the arguments would never happen......plus, and take this with a grain of salt.....this hobby attracts the type of individual that is armed with the necessity to have a base of knowledge (at least more than other topics) that is technical by nature so the numbers people and feelings people will always clash (nevermind this hobby is like 99% male)

 

[Sampajanna]

If only we all made it more about the music and less about the gear......

I know it's wishful thinking. Because if that were true, I wouldn't be hoarding 30 headphones like I'm doing.

Yes, it should be fun and all about music. That is where I part ways with Audio Science Rancor. I dont think their way is a way to enjoy anything. They miss the point…. my experience is that the less of those dudes on a forum/thread, the better and more enjoyable the conversation. They are kill-joys.

 

[elee703]

Yes, it should be fun and all about music. That is where I part ways with Audio Science Rancor. I dont think their way is a way to enjoy anything. They miss the point…. my experience is that the less of those dudes on a forum/thread, the better and more enjoyable the conversation. They are kill-joys.

I agree.....and often people like the sound of "errors" or poor measurements. Also, people's preferences change all the time.......heck i spent all day yesterday listening to my Aryas but today I couldn't take the extension and detail so Im opting for my Meze 99. Are the Aryas "better measuring" than the meze? Of course. Would ASR EVER recommend the mezee 99 over the aryas? Prob not.....but today I definitely ENJOY my Meze's more