[mjg]

Whitebread, don't be so hasty...

Dr ArthurWells:


You make audio sound way too complicated... Enscapsulated sound imaging? This aint like a network streaming media protocol. Have you ever heard any of the higher end headroom or meier products that use cross feed? Listen to a real system that uses crossfeed sometime... They aren't nearly as bad, and these users aren't as dumb as you'd like to imagine saying "gee whiz".

Go read any of Dr Meire's material on cross feed or see what tyll (or any well respected members here) have to say about the matter. For alot of people it reduces listening fatigue and makes headphones a more natural experience...

 

[drarthurwells]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjg Whitebread, don't be so hasty... Dr ArthurWells: You make audio sound way too complicated... Enscapsulated sound imaging? This aint like a network streaming media protocol. Have you ever heard any of the higher end headroom or meier products that use cross feed? Listen to a real system that uses crossfeed sometime... They aren't nearly as bad, and these users aren't as dumb as you'd like to imagine saying "gee whiz". Go read any of Dr Meire's material on cross feed or see what tyll (or any well respected members here) have to say about the matter. For alot of people it reduces listening fatigue and makes headphones a more natural experience...

Art: Without crossfeed you do get recordings with one instrument on the far right and another on the far left and a third in the middle.

These three instruments have a precise location, and their tones are sharply etched in space with empty air surrounding them (the tones are encapsulated in space). This is how they sound from a front center seat up close to the instruments, and far from walls.

Crossfeed expands the tones so that the three instruments expand and merge together more. They are blurred together more rather than remaining separated. This is how they sound from further away from the stage, say way back from the instruments, where walls, ceilings and floors carry delayed reflected sound. This phase distortion muddies the sound and blends the instruments together.

Headphones reduce phase distortion and interaural distortion from speakers in a room, which is why headphones have so much clarity compared to speakers. Crossfeed induces interaural distortion and phase distortion (when the crossfed signal has some slight delay - particularly less than 8 milliseconds).

You get less inner detail with crossfeed than without. In loud and complex passages, good inner detail allows you to separate individual instruments out from the mass of instruments while crossfeed reduces inner detail and blends sound together in one mass.

I think no-crossfeed is better with much music, particulalrly with loud complex passages such as in symphonic music or metal rock.

 

[Yeldarb]

I found the sound stage in my head thing unpleasant and I felt at times that I was going cross eyed. I added a crossfeed unit into my rig and the whole listening experience improved as the musical image moved out of my head.

As for loss of musical integrity or whatever, I didn't notice any as I was too busy enjoying the music.

B

 

[canloader]

I like to use crossfeed for chamber music.. Baroque as well.. It adds a very "cathedral" like feeling to the instruments. Sounds like the concert hall is twice the size... Gives me a feeling of visiting an old Montessori..

My $.02

 

[felixkrull6]

I can do with or without crossfeed, to be honest with you I don't hear a huge difference.

 

[vo328]

I have become a huge fan of the crossfeed feature on the HeadRoom Micro. I have some "very stereo-happy" recordings from days past that never sounded "comfortable" on headphones. The crossfeed feature really helps make those tracks sound more comfortable, natural and without a doubt, less fatiguing. It is true that I don't hear much of a difference with modern recordings, but nevertheless, I keep it on all the time anyhow. It seems to make a difference to the way bass is presented from my Micro.

I wasn't sure how much I'd like this feature, but now I don't think I can go back to life without it.

My $0.02.

 

[fjf]

I don't usually use it. It reduces bass and the spatial information about instruments placement. And regarding listening fatigue...there is an old trick, stopping listening, that works wonders.

 

[neilvg]

I find it funny that people say crossfeed improves the soundfield. Honestly, I must have alien ears because for me, it GREATLY reduces imaging and soundstage to me, and additionally, I find that it lessens overall dynamics and clarity.

Of course if you always have it turned on, this effect cannot be noticed, and crossfeed sounds fine. I feel this effect is exacerbated by the Corda Cross and less so by the Headroom crossfeed. I have never heard a Meir Crossfeed circuit built into one of his amps as I have never really heard any of Jan's amps.

But I know people disagree with me, and to be honest, I find that using the headroom crossfeed on my old Supreme Portable amp is awesome and 'indispensible'.

Neil

 

[senny-ftw]

Some recordings, e.g. Radiohead OK Computer, Jack Johnson, have really irritating stereo mixing to my ears. Like on an unplugged track where the vocals are purely left and the guitar is purely right. Really irritating for me.

Crossfeed makes it much easier to listen to; creates a soundstage out of some random left/right rubbish. That's the benefit I find in crossfeed, and I use it on tracks where the above applies.

 

[vo328]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjf I don't usually use it. It reduces bass and the spatial information about instruments placement. And regarding listening fatigue...there is an old trick, stopping listening, that works wonders.

When I referred to fatigue, I should have perhaps been more specific. Sometimes, when specific sounds are only recorded in the left or right channel, especially when nothing is playing in the other channel, it creates an odd sensation for me... I cannot describe it in any other way than saying it is almost a pressurized effect, where one ear is trying really hard to hear something that just isn't there. That's very much alleviated when using the crossfeed function.

 

[Oliver :)]

I don't want to be without crossfeed anymore. Yes, it does compress the soundstage a little bit, yet it also renders the representation more coherent and natural. Plus it reduces listening fatigue a great deal. I am a stereoholic at times, I love spatial effects, being drowned in sonic particles (think Björk, or WipEout Soundtracks) - crossfeed makes such music much more enjoyable as the image created is more plasticid, three dimensional, and lacks the artificial impression that always reminds you that you are wearing headphones.

These impressions gathered from longterm exposure to both Headroom's and Xin's implementations, no software implementations.

 

[Whitebread]

Hey guys, at this point using crossfeed is a simple as installing a plugin to foobar, theres no reason to not try it. Thanks!

 

[Whitebread]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu Google is very convenient. Have you ever tried it? http://www.foobar2000.org/foobar2000_0.8.3_special.exe Just download that foobar2000 special pack and install it. There's crossfeed included.

If you have a problem with me asking for a link and want me to google it, then don't answer my request. Its easier for you to not help at all than to tell me to use google.

 

[Whitebread]

Hey guys, how do I configure and activate teh crossfeed option in foobar2000 special?

 

[Beauregard]

Crossfeed - Facts:

1. Because stereo recordings are meant to be listened to via speakers, the spatial qualities intended by the artist/producer/engineer are achieved when both ears can hear both channels. Headphone listening is inherently untrue to the intent of the recording because it's equivalent to listening to speakers placed in separate rooms, one for each ear.

2. All crossfeeds are NOT created equal. No one should ever describe an opinion about "generic" crossfeed, pro or con; opinions are only valid if the type of crossfeed is specified. The HeadRoom implementation draws on psychoacoustic research dating back 50 years to determine the amplitude and delay required to simulate listening to speakers placed at a 30 degree angle. Jan Meier's version involves differential frequency response in determining the nature of the crossfed signal to achieve a natural effect.

I encourage people to read the HeadRoom and Meier websites to understand the different methods. I have no idea how any other version of crossfeed works or how sound the underlying science might be. (No experience with software crossfeed but I doubt very much that using such will give you an accurate preview of what Meier or HeadRoom offer in hardware. Would be good to hear about this from people with experience!)

3. The effect of any given crossfeed implementation can vary greatly depending on a) heaphones used and b) the nature of the recording. Any informed opinion about a specific crossfeed should indicate which phones were used and give some sense of the spatial and tonal qualities of recordings listened to in arriving at that opinion.

Crossfeed - Informed speculation:

1. Many people who dislike crossfeed have a predispostion against it because it adds complexity to the signal path and alters what they view as the "purity" of the audio experience. At a philosophical level, this is more troubling to them than Fact 1 above.

2. Many people who appreciate crossfeed are likely to have a pre-audition bias in its favor because they have found the effects of Fact 1 to be problematic and have actively sought a solution. I include myself in this category.


Crossfeed - Opinion

I've been addicted to HeadRoom's crossfeed since 1994; see my profile for system details. Urk... planned to write more but something's come up and I'm not sure when I'll have time... Search on my username...

Sorry for the abrupt ending! Catch you later...

Best,
Beau