[carm]

Hi everyone,
 
The time has come to upgrade, or just try something different. At the moment, I have in my possession quite magnificent solid state Red Wine Audio HPA amplifier, which is rather good and I am quite happy with it. But as the majority of you know, when upgraditis strikes it is so hard to control it 

 
Anyway, the first question which is bothering me: do tube amplifiers go well with electronic music ? I am talking about such genres as IDM (intelectual dance music, there is sample video at youtube), techno, electro, ambient, etc.

 
On head-fi there are split opinions regarding Leben CS300X(s) amplifier ( CS600 is bigger brother, so it should be considered too). In short - one is better off with dedicated headphone amp, than using integrated amp's headphone output. What I mean is, is it possible that headphones will not be able to reach their potential via headphone jack using  such amps ? (CS300, CS600, SLI-80, 300 SEI) 
Second question: are these amplifiers are as good with headphones as with speakers ?
 
I have read that various tubes have different characteristics, thus music will be reproduced differently. If we are talking about CS600 and SLI-80 there is quite a selection of NOS and other tubes, but if we look at 300 SEI... Well 300B NOS can cost one a fortune.
I am sorry if I may sound silly, but will there be any significant difference in sound if one changes input and/or driver tubes ?
Last question: is there a defined lifetime of a tube ?
 
Thank you for your answers and suggestions.
 
P. S. There is no possibility for me to audition any of these amplifiers. 

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

Anyway, the first question which is bothering me: do tube amplifiers go well with electronic music ? I am talking about such genres as IDM (intelectual dance music, there is sample video at youtube), techno, electro, ambient, etc.

 
Tubes are better, probably.  They can be very dreamy and very ambient.
 
On head-fi there are split opinions regarding Leben CS300X(s) amplifier ( CS600 is bigger brother, so it should be considered too). In short - one is better off with dedicated headphone amp, than using integrated amp's headphone output. What I mean is, is it possible that headphones will not be able to reach their potential via headphone jack using  such amps ? (CS300, CS600, SLI-80, 300 SEI) 
Second question: are these amplifiers are as good with headphones as with speakers ?
 
Yes, and they're better than a lot of dedicated headphone amps.  An amp is an amp, and headroom above the milliwatt level never hurt.
 
I have read that various tubes have different characteristics, thus music will be reproduced differently. If we are talking about CS600 and SLI-80 there is quite a selection of NOS and other tubes, but if we look at 300 SEI... Well 300B NOS can cost one a fortune.
I am sorry if I may sound silly, but will there be any significant difference in sound if one changes input and/or driver tubes ?
 
"Significant" is in the ear of the listener, but I can't imagine you won't hear differences.  The range of possibilities is broad.  Stay away from 300Bs for your first foray.  Not much choice, and certainly the Cary 300 SEI will be unpredictably colored, based on the real-world impedance and reactance of your chosen headphones.  The Leben CS300 would be a great choice.  It will give you at least 98% of the best sound imaginable in an uncomplicated and manageable package, at a comparatively reasonable price.
 
Last question: is there a defined lifetime of a tube ?
 
In practice it varies, but you'll get several years at least.
 
 

 

 

[majkel]

I would never choose the Leben CS300XS over the Cary SLI-80, no matter whether headphones or speakers are concerned. I didn't want to comment the CAD-300 SEI as I only know others opinions that it's worse for headphones than the SLI-80. Let's get it straight - the CS300XS hardly fits any headphones, name it the K701 and the HD800. With the T1, the ATH-W5000 this would be fail. Not to mention Grado's which paired with the SLI-80 sing. Beyerdynamic T1? No problem, either. This amp is just more powerful and much more transparent. You also have another choice not much talked here about - ASL Twin Head MkIII. People don't rave about this preamplifier because of low rated output power of headphones but don't worry. 2A3 tubes are able to drive effcient speakers so headphones will work and this will be great. Just look at the architecture. You get two devices, both dual mono - the PSU and the amplifier. One remark - I heard the upgraded one only (DACTs, teflon tube sockets, replaced capacitors, bias adjusted for 45 tubes). Regarding sound quality - the smallest Leben gets slaughtered in terms of transparency and beauty. 45 mesh plate tubes are magic which you can fit with transparent NOS drivers i.e. Siemens & Halske CCa and select rectifiers and regulating tubes in the PSU for more sound adjustment. It's an expensive option but the journey through the music presentation might fascinating over years, and it's proven that you can use Edition 9, most Grado's, HD600, T1, W5000, D7000, Edition 10, HA-DX1000, DT880 and more, partly due to two available modes - OTL and transformer.
The Cary SLI-80 is a good option for people appreciating plug & play functionality as yet with the stock tubes it sounds very good.
And the last option I would suggest is the Yamamoto Soundcraft HA-02. This is a well built tube sounding device. There is few of them showing what really tubes are all about and IMHO this is one of them. The stock tubes are somewhere in between reality and midrange sweetness. For more candy-like presentation you can try Westinghouse while the Sylvania 408A Gold Pin will be the most transparent, giving great soundstage and very good bass.

 

[InnerSpace]

^^ Majkel, I hear you and obviously you have every right to your opinion and your preference for the Cary.  But to suggest that the Leben is "slaughtered" (by anything!) is the kind of exaggeration that makes audio people sound like testosterone-starved little boys, and which is profoundly unhelpful to a poster thinking about a toe in the tube water ... because it simply isn't true.  By all means prefer an alternative, even strongly, but be realistic, OK?  The Leben is at least right up there.

 

[majkel]

InnerSpace, you are right but I think I should counter-balance the flood of false statements about the CS300XS, mainly calling it neutral. It is not - high bass hump, a bit of rumbling echo, "amber" shiny trebles with roll-off at the top end. Maybe changing tubes can improve the situation but Sovtek's sound like that. I don't comment neither the CS300 nor the CS300X which are sometimes mistaken and which I have never heard.

 

[carm]

Thank you guys for your suggestions.
 
 
I was considering Leben CS600, which should be a step up to its little brother CS300X(s), no ?
 
 
I find strange that amp (CS300XS) could have such diverse opinions. Majkel, I hope what you have experienced with Leben was only because of Sovtek tubes. As I have read in these forums, head-fier should try rolling different tubes to find best pleasing sound for ones hearing.

 

[winzzz]

may i ask why you consider those 3 integrated rather than a headphone amp like woo or eddie current ? for speaker too ?

 

[carm]

Yes, winzzz.
In near future I am considering to purchase a pair of speakers. 
 
Quote:

may i ask why you consider those 3 integrated rather than a headphone amp like woo or eddie current ? for speaker too ?

 

[majkel]

Quote:

I was considering Leben CS600, which should be a step up to its little brother CS300X(s), no ?

Based on my friend's opinion - the CS600 is better.
 
Quote:

I find strange that amp (CS300XS) could have such diverse opinions. Majkel, I hope what you have experienced with Leben was only because of Sovtek tubes. As I have read in these forums, head-fier should try rolling different tubes to find best pleasing sound for ones hearing.

I guess the rave about the CS300XS is due to lack of direct comparison to other devices you mentioned in the opening post. Sovtek tubes are what you get inside of the amp. I am not able to tell anything about results of tube rolling. There was a time Leben offered the CS300X with Mullard tubes but they stopped in the time when they released the XS version which is just the CS300 with bigger output transformers and better capacitors but the same tubes.

 

[winzzz]

majkel have you heard the cary xciter amp ? i once asked cary customer service through email which one would be better as a headphone amp and they recommended the xciter over the sli 80

 

[InnerSpace]

Quote:

I guess the rave about the CS300XS is due to lack of direct comparison to other devices you mentioned in the opening post. Sovtek tubes are what you get inside of the amp. I am not able to tell anything about results of tube rolling.

 
I think we need to assume the Sovteks are merely "placeholders" and meaningful opinions will need some rolling.  That said, certainly I find the Sovteks suboptimal, but not in the ways you describe.  Our mileage varies, which is fine.
 

 

[majkel]

Quote:

majkel have you heard the cary xciter amp ? i once asked cary customer service through email which one would be better as a headphone amp and they recommended the xciter over the sli 80

No, I haven't heard but some users report great synergy of the Xciter with Grado headphones. You can also consider the Woo Audio 5, standard or LE depending on planned speakers usage.

 

[orkney]

I have the Cary SLi-80 Signature, and have now (finally!) had a chance to home-audition the current-production Lebens. The 600 was way out of my price range but I enjoyed it and appreciated its flexibility and extra power over its little brother. I also enjoyed the 300Xs, and it's certainly a beauty, but it sounded quite close to my Manley Stingray, another very fine EL84-based tube amp: quick, tight bass and a (for lack of a better desc) attractive but slightly glassy upper-mid/lower treble. As a headphone amp it was very good with the two phones I had available to try it with (T1 and HD650). The Leben sound, at least with the tubes supplied and as connected to my Ayre CDP and Harbeths speakers, was not my cup of tea (I missed the overall scale and luxurious mids of my beloved Luxman), but it's clearly excellent with phones and sympathetic speakers alike and it's a terrific package overall. I can see why the brand has such an avid following.
 
The Cary is a longstanding design with tremendous flexibility in tube choice as well as triode/pentode operation, which means you can fine-tune it very precisely to your listening preferences. KT88s, EL34s, 6CA7s -- and that's just the outputs. It also has an excellent headphone stage, is well-built with good parts and transformers, and easy to find used at around the 1600 - 1800.00 price point. It's also bigger, heavier and, arguably, less charmingly proportioned than the Leben. I'd say that they were in the same ballpark sound-wise -- although they don't necessarily sound alike, since the Cary can be a little thicker and more overtly tubey-sounding depending on tube complement -- that the OP might be very happy with either. I'd let your choice of headphones and speakers, as well as your heart, decide. I briefly owned the SEI (2nd version) and it drove me crazy as an amp -- far more transducer dependent than anything else I have ever owned and frustrating as a result. I'd say it's a mandatory-audition piece, whereas I can imagine just about anyone being at least pretty happy with the sound of the Leben or Sli-80.
 
good luck,
 
o

 

[carm]

orkney,
 
Thank you for the insight. 

 

[vert]

I haven't heard the SLI-80, but I do have the Xciter amp. The Xciter does have that tubey sound with its stock tubes, and is very smooth, musical, & warm. I've also owned the Leben 300x. The Leben is a very transparent & refined amp, however it does have the sparkle & glassiness the other posters have mentioned. I actually miss that, now that I no longer have it.