IEMCrazy
Longwindeus Supremus
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2012
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In the non-summit forum, my ranting against the whole "mid-fi" monicker has become infamous in a few threads Calling HD650, K/Q70x, DT880/990, etc mid-fi is preposterous. However my argument is slightly more in the middle than obobskivich's. I can gladly exist that mid-fi does exist. AD700 for example strikes me as a mid-fi headphone. It's a $100 headphone that performs very well for it's price, is filled with detail, but not as much as some of the top tiers have. But ultimately what I think REALLY separates low to mid to high, is how much it has to compromose from a theoretical "flawless" (i.e. sounds exactly like real life.) The top tier cans in theory would represent as close as technology allows to "real life" sound reproduction. Headphones that make a bit more compromise would fall into general hi-fi. The ones that give up just a bit too much would be mid-fi, and the ones that don't in any way sound like real life would be "low-fi". AD700 is a headphone that fits well with mid-fi to me because it's very good, with a surprising soundstage, lots of detail, but it sacrifices so much detail in the bass range to do so. They made a compromise where they preserved detail but sacrificed frequency response to get it. Others will sacrifice detail but retain FR and tonality. Basically, to my eyes, mid-fi represents a range that tries hard to meet both hi-fi and price, and finds a middle ground where it's a good attempt with big compromises.
If technology moved along to a point where newer better performing headphones truly replaced the old models, I could see referring to the old flagships like HD650 and HD600 as "mid-fi". Eventually that will happen. Something that used to be really good but has been surpassed by time and tech. But in the present time that does not fit. The old models still fit the same price tier they always did, and the new "better" headphones fit price points 2, 3, 4x that price point. That's exotic early adopting prototyping. When they can sell HD800 for $500-$600, then we'll talk mid-fi for HD650. Not a moment before. The "better" headphones have not replaced or bumped out the old ones, they simply added a new layer at exhorbitant prices of something a little better.
However, that's a distinction between hi-fi and so-called mid-fi. SUMMIT-FI, by definition I think does have to pertain to bleeding edge somewhat. Stuff that's either the latest in technology no matter the crazy "living prototype" pricing, stuff that may fail in the market horribly but is an interesting try, and stuff that's fairly rare, exotic, etc. That's the one place I draw a distinction in my opinion from obobs. I have no problem calling anything that's ever been hi-fi PERMANANTLY hi-fi. It may be old hi-fi, it may be surpassed hi-fi, but it was still designed as a hi-fi piece, and thus it IS a hi-fi piece. But I can also accept there to be hi-fi gear that's a cut above the rest too. And summit by name implies it's the stuff that stands above the rest. But that's just it. Many people define "hi-fi" as being the handful of absolute best, flagships only, etc. Which is really what summit is all about. And if you follow the "it must be flagship to be hi-fi" logic to it's logical end, the HD700 is a brand new, shiny, $1000 mid-fi can, as is the LCD-2
Also, I'm not sure HD650 in itself was ever considered summit. Back when I got into HD650, the trio (701/650/880) was the pinnacle of hi-fi, and summit-fi was limited pretty much to the true exotics....orpheus, Stax, R10, etc. But HD650 was visible in summit circles because people were building $10,000 signal chains of Mark Levinson, Ray Samuels, etc equipment. So HD650 was a staple of the summit-fi amp and DAC owners, while from what I saw, HD650 itself was never actually summit-fi. What's changed since then is that "Summit" has dropped down from the $3k-10k headphone arena down to the $1k-10k arena with the introduction of new models. hi-fi has otherwise stayed pretty much identical to where it was 5 years ago, but with more people trying to convince everyone that only summit-fi is hi-fi and everything else is mid-fi.
"Summit-fi" by implication implies that it's, by nature, extraordinarily into diminising returns beyond normal level gear. Extreme prices for moderate performance bumps. It's kind of a prototype showcase....summit-fi lets you try, today, for $1500 what everyone will buy tomorrow for $500 It's those old Disney "home of the future" prototypes that looked nothing like what a modern home actually looks like, but it was a valiant attempt! But ALL of it, from summit-fi down through HD598, at least, is surely hi-fi.
If you want to find the "cheapest" summit-fi headphone around, find the first headphone that you're paying for a whole lot more than you actually get, but you do actually get something over the vastly cheaper one, and you've found the beginning of summit-fi
That may well be HE-500 simply because the HE-400 can get so close to it for so much less. That's not overcharging though, that's because HE-400 now has automated assembly and HE-500 was from before the automated assembly went live so it clost a lot more to make. Next generation will probably see the prices shift again. If they were manufactured the same way, estimation is they'd be more like $100 different at most.
I see... so what headphone do you consider to be the cheapest summit-fi headphone? He500 at 700 bucks nowadays?
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Depends on how you want to classify summit-fi. If you mean good quality sound that doesn't get old after a few hours and a can that is well rounded and high fidelity in its reproduction abilities, the K701, HD600/650, and DT880 are very much relevant. But they don't "fit" because they're $1000 too cheap.I'm not a fan of this recent "smash everything into rankings" jag that seems to have taken the world by storm - take your cans straight-up and stick with the ones you like, who cares if they don't "win" popularity contests or Consumer Reports doesn't put them at the top of their list.
If you wanted a more conservative answer (as in, one that won't have people get irked at you for challenging the status quo and/or questioning things in general) - the HE-500 are a common suggestion (I have not heard them, and probably never will - imho no headphone has a good reason to be 500g or larger), the ESP/950 are also obscure and expensive enough to sit at the table. The thing is, the ESP/950 are what? $600-$1000 depending on Amazon's mood, and something like the HD 580 or HD 600 were $200-$350 a few years ago, and are nearly as good and just as enjoyable - so which one is really better? (And this isn't meant to denigrate the 950 - I enjoy them quite a bit, but I see their extra cost more as a function of their complexity and American build, not as some sort of objective measure of their performance relative to things around them).
In the non-summit forum, my ranting against the whole "mid-fi" monicker has become infamous in a few threads Calling HD650, K/Q70x, DT880/990, etc mid-fi is preposterous. However my argument is slightly more in the middle than obobskivich's. I can gladly exist that mid-fi does exist. AD700 for example strikes me as a mid-fi headphone. It's a $100 headphone that performs very well for it's price, is filled with detail, but not as much as some of the top tiers have. But ultimately what I think REALLY separates low to mid to high, is how much it has to compromose from a theoretical "flawless" (i.e. sounds exactly like real life.) The top tier cans in theory would represent as close as technology allows to "real life" sound reproduction. Headphones that make a bit more compromise would fall into general hi-fi. The ones that give up just a bit too much would be mid-fi, and the ones that don't in any way sound like real life would be "low-fi". AD700 is a headphone that fits well with mid-fi to me because it's very good, with a surprising soundstage, lots of detail, but it sacrifices so much detail in the bass range to do so. They made a compromise where they preserved detail but sacrificed frequency response to get it. Others will sacrifice detail but retain FR and tonality. Basically, to my eyes, mid-fi represents a range that tries hard to meet both hi-fi and price, and finds a middle ground where it's a good attempt with big compromises.
If technology moved along to a point where newer better performing headphones truly replaced the old models, I could see referring to the old flagships like HD650 and HD600 as "mid-fi". Eventually that will happen. Something that used to be really good but has been surpassed by time and tech. But in the present time that does not fit. The old models still fit the same price tier they always did, and the new "better" headphones fit price points 2, 3, 4x that price point. That's exotic early adopting prototyping. When they can sell HD800 for $500-$600, then we'll talk mid-fi for HD650. Not a moment before. The "better" headphones have not replaced or bumped out the old ones, they simply added a new layer at exhorbitant prices of something a little better.
However, that's a distinction between hi-fi and so-called mid-fi. SUMMIT-FI, by definition I think does have to pertain to bleeding edge somewhat. Stuff that's either the latest in technology no matter the crazy "living prototype" pricing, stuff that may fail in the market horribly but is an interesting try, and stuff that's fairly rare, exotic, etc. That's the one place I draw a distinction in my opinion from obobs. I have no problem calling anything that's ever been hi-fi PERMANANTLY hi-fi. It may be old hi-fi, it may be surpassed hi-fi, but it was still designed as a hi-fi piece, and thus it IS a hi-fi piece. But I can also accept there to be hi-fi gear that's a cut above the rest too. And summit by name implies it's the stuff that stands above the rest. But that's just it. Many people define "hi-fi" as being the handful of absolute best, flagships only, etc. Which is really what summit is all about. And if you follow the "it must be flagship to be hi-fi" logic to it's logical end, the HD700 is a brand new, shiny, $1000 mid-fi can, as is the LCD-2
Also, I'm not sure HD650 in itself was ever considered summit. Back when I got into HD650, the trio (701/650/880) was the pinnacle of hi-fi, and summit-fi was limited pretty much to the true exotics....orpheus, Stax, R10, etc. But HD650 was visible in summit circles because people were building $10,000 signal chains of Mark Levinson, Ray Samuels, etc equipment. So HD650 was a staple of the summit-fi amp and DAC owners, while from what I saw, HD650 itself was never actually summit-fi. What's changed since then is that "Summit" has dropped down from the $3k-10k headphone arena down to the $1k-10k arena with the introduction of new models. hi-fi has otherwise stayed pretty much identical to where it was 5 years ago, but with more people trying to convince everyone that only summit-fi is hi-fi and everything else is mid-fi.
"Summit-fi" by implication implies that it's, by nature, extraordinarily into diminising returns beyond normal level gear. Extreme prices for moderate performance bumps. It's kind of a prototype showcase....summit-fi lets you try, today, for $1500 what everyone will buy tomorrow for $500 It's those old Disney "home of the future" prototypes that looked nothing like what a modern home actually looks like, but it was a valiant attempt! But ALL of it, from summit-fi down through HD598, at least, is surely hi-fi.
If you want to find the "cheapest" summit-fi headphone around, find the first headphone that you're paying for a whole lot more than you actually get, but you do actually get something over the vastly cheaper one, and you've found the beginning of summit-fi