[tonym]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otto The Blotto /img/forum/go_quote.gif Although a big Shostakovich fan myself you.... Only for completists, closet Soviets or masochists: 11....

Discuss.

 

[zumaro]

The words vulgar second rate film music come to mind. Simple minded materials hashed together at great length, with little subtlety of expression or emotion.

Reading between the lines you obviously think that it is better than the awful 12th, which I would agree with.

 

[kerelybonto]

This is turning into the second take of the Shostakovich Symphonies thread. I suggest we take our discussion there so we don't have two parallel topics.

I need to spend some more time with these pieces and try to form some sort of coherent idea of DSCH's work as a whole.

Eric

 

[robm321]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zumaro /img/forum/go_quote.gif The words vulgar second rate film music come to mind. Simple minded materials hashed together at great length, with little subtlety of expression or emotion.

Considering what he was writing about, don't you think "sublety of expression or emotion" wouldn't quite fit in?

I mean he's setting a mood, theme about something that is bombastic, crude, and not very complex - to say the least.

Justin Timberlake has worth?

I have a headache.

 

[Bunnyears]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zumaro /img/forum/go_quote.gif The words vulgar second rate film music come to mind. Simple minded materials hashed together at great length, with little subtlety of expression or emotion. Reading between the lines you obviously think that it is better than the awful 12th, which I would agree with.

Zumaro, I don't wish to upset you and I'm not trying to offend or insult you, but you are a self-confessed "Shostakovich sceptic." Your posts reveal that for the most part you only enjoy bits and pieces of his music, so what are you doing here? It seems you are more interested in discouraging the OP's curiousity about the composer than encouraging him to explore and decide for himself. You are so obviously negative about the music, perhaps you are not the best person to make suggestions.

 

[zumaro]

Aesthetic judgement is tied to audience and purpose. Shostakovitch probably would not do r'n'b dance music very well, and Timberlake singing and dancing about the horrors of Soviet Repression would not necessarily be a good thing. Both have different intentions, one not particularly profound but still an interesting enough cultural communication from the world we are immersed in, and the other considerably more complicated and communicating much deeper ideas about the human condition.

Applying the same aesthetic framework to quite different means and ends is not a useful pursuit. Yes Timberlake is relative artistic rubbish within a classical music framework (and maybe even within his own framework), but then he doesn't pretend to be deep, and people aren't listening to him to have anything more than a diverting good time. Within this framework I then ask can he sing, can he convey some kind of human passion, and other questions that lead me to say hes OK at what he does, and if I am in the mood for dancing or background filler noise he is diverting enough without irritating me.

Shostakovitch is plainly not wishing to make me dance in a club, or cover up the drudgery of my day to day life with an easily remembered tune, but rather is making big statements using considerably more complicated means. He demands my attention because I have to sit down and focus on ideas that are developed over the course of an hour rather than repeated a few times in 4 minutes, and therefore I take him much more seriously.

So yes Timberlake has worth and so does Shostakovitch. How successful each is compared to others attempting similar communicative aims is the real question. I don't think Shostakovitch is as good as many other twentieth century composers - he pales in comparison to Debussy or Mahler, Stravinsky runs circles around him, and Schoenberg is much more subtle. Within his own oeuvre I can see similar communicative aims between the 8th and 11th symphonies, but I think the 8th has considerably more interesting musical material, which is transformed in more strikingly original ways, and by its quiet end can leave you feeling as though you have been through a shared journey. The 11th symphony uses jingoistic revolutionary songs of not much more worth than a Justin Timberlake tune, fails to do anything with them that is particularly interesting or novel musically, but still manages to do it long and loud for about an hour. It tries my patience whatever its message may be, and however sympathetic I may be to that message.

Can messages of brutality be conveyed with subtlety? Its not so much a question of this, but rather a question of sustaining my intellectual interest as well as engaging me emotionally. The 8th symphony manages that trick in a good performance and the 11th has yet to do that for me. I have been to a concert performance conducted by Rostropovich who should be a fairly persuasive interpreter of the 11th, and while the film music gestures were all in place, and the easy emotions all whipped up, the music didn't engage me beyond this level.

 

[Bunnyears]

Zumaro, you really are missing the point. The OP stated that he was interested in buying his first Shostakovich album and wanted suggestions about a good starting point. He didn't need a long post about how Shostakovich is bad and Timberlake is good.

 

[robm321]

Zumaro - I sense elitism. Prior to your last posts. I thought you made good arguments and figured you just didn't prefer Shosty. But now...

Like me claiming Beethoven's 9th isn't very good - and then elaborating on how he uses simple 5ths throughout his music, blah blah blah, and how in a certain context he didn't fit as well as Michael Jackson's "beat it" during it's time.

A simple technique of taking something that most people beleive - shocking them with claims that it is no good - then twisting, word games and morphing frameworks so that you look like you are way above the typical thinker, and all the experts and non experts were wrong after all.

I suppose Mozart uses simple nursery rhymes too and bores you with his lack of depth. Or Bach just plays numbers games with his music and has no structure, etc. etc.

Justin doesn't write his music. A bunch of hip hop engineers go over samples and put them together knowing the usual tricks that a certain fan will like and they will make money. No depth but accomplishes the mission. Still enjoyeable. Things don't have to be deep to enjoy. that's fine.

Again with Justin you are going against the grain here knowing most people realize he's a figure head for the record label with a pretty face. Since talent goes way beyond his singing level.

 

[zumaro]

Bunnyears you are right - I respond too passionately to challenges, partly because I am interested in the subject and obviously care somewhat about it. My original post answered the OP, and all I should have done when people suggested trying the 7th is at most say that I didn't think that symphony represented Shostakovitch at his best, and they should try others first.

robm321 - you miss my point. Maybe as English is not my language I am not clear, but I say the absolute opposite of your Mozart and Bach statements. Context and audience are important parts of evaluating art and deepening your response to it, and to make claims about Mozart or Bach like that would be shallow. In fact one of my students just made similar claims about a Haydn symphony being boring compared to the Bartok we are studying, and my response was pretty much the same 2 points - historical context is important in looking at art, and the development of even simple materials is one of many things that can distinguish poor from good art. Hence Wolfgang is better than Leopold, or the 11th is not as good as the 8th symphony etc etc

I will shut up now and not derail the thread any more. My apologies to all annoyed by this tangential to the topic debate.

 

[Chris-2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwitel /img/forum/go_quote.gif Going to buy my first Shostakovich recording tomorrow and am looking for a starting point. Id like something dark and emotional/romantic; nothing too upbeat. Ive heard bits and pieces of his 5th and 8th and what I heard was excellent. So where to start and maybe rec a composer too? Thanx!

Shostakovich's Cello Concertos and Violin Concertos are similar to Symphonies, and all 4 works fit your description and comments.

For the Cello Concertos listen to the Philips CD of Heinrich Schiff playing with Maxim Shostakovich conducting. These are truly excellent performances, and have good modern sound.
Some of the slower and sombre parts of the 8th Symph. are similar music, and that I think is his greatest Symph. - hear the BBC live concert CD of Mravinsky conducting the Leningrad S.O. , or Haitink's conducting of it on Decca.
Regis's CD re-release is of a later live Mravinsky performance that is reputed to be good also.
Jansons' conducting of it on EMI is very good for the 3rd ; 4th ; 5th movements especially, and OK for 1st & 2nd m'ments though musically not to the high standard of Mravinsy on BBC there.

For the Violin Concertos hear Daniel Hope playing with Maxim Shostakovich conducting on the Warner Classics CD - good modern sound.
If you don't mind listening to the Violin strongly in the foreground and the Orchestra recessed into the background, then listen to Vengarov playing with Rostropovich conducting - also on a Warner CD -{Warner Elatus label I think}- , but it is harder to follow all the orchestral parts with this recording, and Vengarov is a very emotional player, a bit over the top for some listeners.
If you don't want to risk the price of Hope's on Warner and can't hear before buying, then the budget priced version on Naxos with Ilya Kaler playing is worth buying. Kaler does both works well, especially the 2nd , and the sound balance between Violin and Orchestra is fine, as is Wit's conducting.
There is a melody in the slow movement of the 5th Symph., the type of which is better developed in a movement of the 1st Violin concerto.

An enjoyable version of the 5th Symph. , which I admit I only like about half of as a composition, is Andre Previn's version on RCA -{BMG}- , but Not his later recoring of it for EMI.
Istvan Kertez's version is very good also, recorded for Decca, but only available now on an Australian CD release on the Eloquence label, which is fortunately budget priced, if you have to buy on Mail-order.
Yes, I do own the famous versions by Bernstein -{infamous ! - some of it he conducts too fast}- and Ancerl, but I prefer Previn/RCA and Kubelik.

For the maligned - by a couple of contributers to this thread - 11th Symphony, well, its sense depends very much on its performance. If you don't like the type of music , or its structure , fine - you don't have to , but before any-one can dismiss its worth do hear Berglund's version on EMI - this is a great performance for this sombre and tragic story-music.
Depreist's version on Delos is very good, but the very wide dynamic range of that recording renders it hard to appreciate if one is in limited volume level circumstances.

 

[matrixxhw]

If you buy the 5th symph, try to get the Kondrashin edition (even though it's not great sound-wise). The Bernstein and countless other recordings take the last part of the finale at breakneck speed, of which has been conclusively found to be incorrect. Though the Kondrashin fails in some othe respects, I think it's important to hear the intended tempo.

Shostakovich himself detailed his wish for the ending to be played at the slow, sarcastic tempo of the Moscow PO under Kondrashin. In his own words, it resembles "forced rejoicing," which Stalin's death threats could produce.

 

[randerson3024]

Leningrad - conducted by Valery Gergiev

 

[Chris-2]

Quote:

Originally Posted by matrixxhw /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you buy the 5th symph, try to get the Kondrashin edition (even though it's not great sound-wise). The Bernstein and countless other recordings take the last part of the finale at breakneck speed, of which has been conclusively found to be incorrect. Though the Kondrashin fails in some othe respects, I think it's important to hear the intended tempo. Shostakovich himself detailed his wish for the ending to be played at the slow, sarcastic tempo of the Moscow PO under Kondrashin. In his own words, it resembles "forced rejoicing," which Stalin's death threats could produce.

Hi matrixxhw ,
some timings - durations - of the 4th movement of the 5th Symph.

Ancerl - 10'-10"
Bernstein -{1959}- 8'-56"
Bernstein -{live in Japan in 1979}- 10'-10"

Barshai/WDR - 11'-14"
I haven't heard Barshai's, but some listeners rate it highly. "Regis" have released a CD with the 5th and 6th Symph's taken from the "Brilliant Classics" boxed set. {Barshai's version of #6 is rated well also.}

Ashkenazy/RPO/Decca -10'-59"
This version some rate well, though I haven't heard it.

Kertez - 8'-53"
Yes, he's faster than Bernstein in this movement, but I don't like this movement to listen to, though I do prefer Kertez to Bernstein for the 2nd and 3rd movements.

Previn/LSO/RCA - 9'-35"
Yes, still fairly brisk, but in the movements I like I prefer Previn to all others I've heard to date.

Kondrashin/Moscow - 10'-46"
Rozhdestvensky/USSR Min.Cult. - 11'-01"
Maxim Shostakovich/USSR S.O. - 11'-09"
Maxim Shostakovich/Prague {live}- 12'-50"
Here are more of the slower paced versions, thus the point you made, though one would have to hear the recordings to hear how well Shostakovich's intended sarcasm is portrayed.

I think his son Maxim will know better than any conductor alive today what his father meant and wanted here. Maxim's USSR recording is very well regarded, but unfortunately is not currently available.
His Prague recording is in the Supraphon boxed set, which I hope to obtain soon.
Of these I have heard only Rozhdestvensky. I found his more listenable than Bernstein and Haitink{on Decca}, but not as enjoyable as Previn's for the parts I like.

I'm glad you made the point about the sarcasm, etc ... as I very much agree with you, and what you said is obvious in the music throughout the 4th m'ment, though it will be more-so if at correct tempi and style of performance.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Which Company's re-issue of the Kondrashin Edition do you have ?

In it, is the 4th Symphony given in Mono or Stereo sound ?

Thankyou in anticipation,
Chris.