Which Schiit stack ?

[Jubijub]

Hello everyone !

I use HD800 + powered desktop 2.0 speakers (Edifier Luna Eclipse), currently with a SB ZxR.
I am building a workstation that I will also use under Linux, so I will get rid of the ZxR (no linux drivers).
I also want that unplugging the headphones enables the pre-amp output for the speakers

I am considering a Schiit stack as the products have good rep for value for money. But which ?

DAC :
- Modi 2 Multibit
- Bitfrost Multibit : I quite like the fact that the power supply is inside

Amp :
- Magni 3 : I originally considered the Asgard 2, but it seems the Magni 3 has better specs for cheaper...
- Asgard 2 : I also like the integrated PSU

Thanks for your help, no being audiophile, I have some trouble comparing the products, especially with the tong in cheek lingo of Schiit

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Hello everyone !

I use HD800 + powered desktop 2.0 speakers (Edifier Luna Eclipse), currently with a SB ZxR.
I am building a workstation that I will also use under Linux, so I will get rid of the ZxR (no linux drivers).
I also want that unplugging the headphones enables the pre-amp output for the speakers

I am considering a Schiit stack as the products have good rep for value for money. But which ?

DAC :
- Modi 2 Multibit
- Bitfrost Multibit : I quite like the fact that the power supply is inside

Amp :
- Magni 3 : I originally considered the Asgard 2, but it seems the Magni 3 has better specs for cheaper...
- Asgard 2 : I also like the integrated PSU

Thanks for your help, no being audiophile, I have some trouble comparing the products, especially with the tong in cheek lingo of Schiit

For the DAC I'd suggest getting the Modi2 Uber. Since you're going to use Linux and the Modi2 already has USB driver issues with Win10, might as well play it safe and have SPDIF inputs. The Bifrost has those (and a USB input board optional) but you might as well save a bit of money.

For the amp, might as well get the Vali2. Magni2 and Asgard errs a bit on bright when cranked up. Vali2 isn't stereotypical rolled off at the top tube sound but it's not as sharp in the treble - basically a safer choice for the HD800. It doesn't need as much power as what you can get out of the Magni2 Uber and Magni3 anyway.

Also the Modi2 Uber+Vali2 stack will take up less space on your desk.

If you can spend as much as a Bifrost and Asgard though you might want to save a bit more and get a Violectric V200 with the optional optical or coax input (get whatever your motherboard has) DAC board in it. Treble s smoother on these and noise floor is a little bit lower (not that you have audible noise with Schiit barring issues with USB port quality).

 

[Jubijub]

For the DAC I'd suggest getting the Modi2 Uber. Since you're going to use Linux and the Modi2 already has USB driver issues with Win10, might as well play it safe and have SPDIF inputs. The Bifrost has those (and a USB input board optional) but you might as well save a bit of money.

For the amp, might as well get the Vali2. Magni2 and Asgard errs a bit on bright when cranked up. Vali2 isn't stereotypical rolled off at the top tube sound but it's not as sharp in the treble - basically a safer choice for the HD800. It doesn't need as much power as what you can get out of the Magni2 Uber and Magni3 anyway.

Also the Modi2 Uber+Vali2 stack will take up less space on your desk.

If you can spend as much as a Bifrost and Asgard though you might want to save a bit more and get a Violectric V200 with the optional optical or coax input (get whatever your motherboard has) DAC board in it. Treble s smoother on these and noise floor is a little bit lower (not that you have audible noise with Schiit barring issues with USB port quality).

Thanks for the answer.

I don't get your first point : shouldn't any DAC be recognized by USB audio 2.0 specificiation ? Is there a difference in terms of driver compatibility between the Uber and the Multibit ?
Regarding the SPDIF inputs, I am not sure how that would help me under linux : the ZxR won't work, so won't output anything via Optical. And if I use the coax SPDIF of the mobo soundcard, then what is the point of using a DAC ? (this also means that I must have the mobo sound working under linux, which can be a problem too).

About the Vali2 : I must say the "tube" part scares me off a little : I heard about warm up time, the fact tubes have a limited lifespan, etc... I don't know how "easy" it is to use on a day to day basis, but I am open.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I don't get your first point : shouldn't any DAC be recognized by USB audio 2.0 specificiation?

"Should" isn't the same as "totally, absolutely would." Check this section on the forum as well as the Modi2 thread. People have been getting driver issues and Schiit doesn't exactly have a software department to come up with custom fix drivers. It can be just Windows 10, but isn't $50 worth getting some back up?

Is there a difference in terms of driver compatibility between the Uber and the Multibit?

AFAIK they use the same receiver chip so there shouldn't be.

Regarding the SPDIF inputs, I am not sure how that would help me under linux : the ZxR won't work, so won't output anything via Optical. And if I use the coax SPDIF of the mobo soundcard, then what is the point of using a DAC?

SPDIF is Sony-Philips Digital Interface. If it's an output port, then it outputs digital.

DAC is Digital to Analogue Converter. It receives digital from USB or SPDIF (or HDMI), then outputs analogue to an amplifier.

If you just use SPDIF and you can somehow hear music without a DAC (and an amp), that is bad, bad, bad news for the rest of us. Or good. Bad because we're living in a computer simulation and we're all just chargers for the Machines, good because you might be...THE One. And you can just download kung fu when Agent Smith comes.

(this also means that I must have the mobo sound working under linux, which can be a problem too).

Very geenrally SPDIF outputs are way less finicky than USB. Like I said, $50 for ome kind of back up so you can use USB or SPDIF coax / optical isn't a huge expense compared to having something that won't work properly.

About the Vali2 : I must say the "tube" part scares me off a little : I heard about warm up time, the fact tubes have a limited lifespan, etc... I don't know how "easy" it is to use on a day to day basis, but I am open.

Tubes have a rated life span but that's actually a reeeeeeeeeeeally long time barring something that damages them. Op-amps and discrete components last forever in theory but you can always bust a chip down the line and with no easily identifiable cause.

Difference is that while you might bust a tube sooner than a chip that doesn't prematurely fail at least you can wiggle it off and try a new one. With chips you'll need to try a multimeter, desolder, solder on replacement chips...not that you don't have chips in the Vali2, but point is, tube service life of tubes isn't really a problem when they're easier to service than solid state parts.

 

[cossix]

I haven't had issues with Modi 2 Uber on Windows but I will admit I've heard of other people having trouble. Part of the reason people are recommending Modi 2 Uber is because it is much more flexible. Yes, it is an entry level DAC (Don't get me wrong, it's a great buy and I absolutely loved mine), but many people don't ever feel the need to upgrade it. If that becomes the case with you, then you'll want as many inputs as you can, because you don't quite know where this hobby will take you and what gear you'll pair with it down the road.
As for Vali 2, Schiit's tube amps are damn solid and aren't too fragile.

 

[cossix]

If you just use SPDIF and you can somehow hear music without a DAC (and an amp), that is bad, bad, bad news for the rest of us. Or good. Bad because we're living in a computer simulation and we're all just chargers for the Machines, good because you might be...THE One. And you can just download kung fu when Agent Smith comes.

Smith actually fits the Oracle's prophecy of "The One" better than Neo does! There is a whole theory on it, and it makes a very good argument for why Neo is just a powerful scrub.

Other than that, everything else is spot on! Take this guy's advice ^^

 

[Jubijub]

"Should" isn't the same as "totally, absolutely would." Check this section on the forum as well as the Modi2 thread. People have been getting driver issues and Schiit doesn't exactly have a software department to come up with custom fix drivers. It can be just Windows 10, but isn't $50 worth getting some back up?

Excuse me, but this is not clear : there are 3 Modi2 :
- "vanilla" : 99$
- "Uber" : 149$
- "Multibit" : 249$
I've mentionned my interest for the Multibit, so how is going to the Uber a 50$ investment ?
In other words, is the driver issue plaguing the vanilla or the Multibit ?

I fully agree I don't want driver issues, and I am willing to pay to be on the safe side.

AFAIK they use the same receiver chip so there shouldn't be.

So based on this, I would understand the driver issue is only for the vanilla version ?

SPDIF is Sony-Philips Digital Interface. If it's an output port, then it outputs digital.

DAC is Digital to Analogue Converter. It receives digital from USB or SPDIF (or HDMI), then outputs analogue to an amplifier.

If you just use SPDIF and you can somehow hear music without a DAC (and an amp), that is bad, bad, bad news for the rest of us. Or good. Bad because we're living in a computer simulation and we're all just chargers for the Machines, good because you might be...THE One. And you can just download kung fu when Agent Smith comes.

I took the wrong pill, sorry

But this answers half the question : for any soundcard or mobo to output SPDIF means they have to be recognized by Linux...I know the ZxR won't (no driver exist), for my mobo this should be OK (ALC1150)

Very geenrally SPDIF outputs are way less finicky than USB. Like I said, $50 for ome kind of back up so you can use USB or SPDIF coax / optical isn't a huge expense compared to having something that won't work properly.

I don't disagree, but I never said I wanted to stick with the 99$ version.
As for SPDIF vs USB, you are most probably right, but I really want to externalize audio from my workstation, so I can have total freedom in the hardware I chose inside (eg : recent mobo use newer version of realtek chip that are barely recognized by Linux)

Tubes have a rated life span but that's actually a reeeeeeeeeeeally long time barring something that damages them. Op-amps and discrete components last forever in theory but you can always bust a chip down the line and with no easily identifiable cause.

Difference is that while you might bust a tube sooner than a chip that doesn't prematurely fail at least you can wiggle it off and try a new one. With chips you'll need to try a multimeter, desolder, solder on replacement chips...not that you don't have chips in the Vali2, but point is, tube service life of tubes isn't really a problem when they're easier to service than solid state parts.

I live in Europe (Switzerland), and I will most likely ship from either US or UK (Modi Europe, even if prices are ludricrous). Would tubes survive this ?

I haven't had issues with Modi 2 Uber on Windows but I will admit I've heard of other people having trouble. Part of the reason people are recommending Modi 2 Uber is because it is much more flexible. Yes, it is an entry level DAC (Don't get me wrong, it's a great buy and I absolutely loved mine), but many people don't ever feel the need to upgrade it. If that becomes the case with you, then you'll want as many inputs as you can, because you don't quite know where this hobby will take you and what gear you'll pair with it down the road.
As for Vali 2, Schiit's tube amps are damn solid and aren't too fragile.

my original question was : between the Modi 2 Multibit and the Bitfrost multibit, which one would you recommend ?
In both case, I understand I would have the multi input...

I don't claim to have any magical ears, so it could be that I wouldn't hear the difference between the two. My main reason to go DAC is not necessarily audio quality, it's more getting audio out of the equation for system upgrade. This being said I like good quality sound (hence the HD800) so I want to make sure I get something decent.
If I make a wine analogy : I can clearly taste the difference between a 10$ bottle and a 100$ bottle. I probably cannot taste the difference between a 100$ and a 500$ bottle.

 

[cossix]

Excuse me, but this is not clear : there are 3 Modi2 :
- "vanilla" : 99$
- "Uber" : 149$
- "Multibit" : 249$
I've mentionned my interest for the Multibit, so how is going to the Uber a 50$ investment ?
In other words, is the driver issue plaguing the vanilla or the Multibit ?

I fully agree I don't want driver issues, and I am willing to pay to be on the safe side.


So based on this, I would understand the driver issue is only for the vanilla version ?



I took the wrong pill, sorry

But this answers half the question : for any soundcard or mobo to output SPDIF means they have to be recognized by Linux...I know the ZxR won't (no driver exist), for my mobo this should be OK (ALC1150)



I don't disagree, but I never said I wanted to stick with the 99$ version.
As for SPDIF vs USB, you are most probably right, but I really want to externalize audio from my workstation, so I can have total freedom in the hardware I chose inside (eg : recent mobo use newer version of realtek chip that are barely recognized by Linux)


I live in Europe (Switzerland), and I will most likely ship from either US or UK (Modi Europe, even if prices are ludricrous). Would tubes survive this ?


my original question was : between the Modi 2 Multibit and the Bitfrost multibit, which one would you recommend ?
In both case, I understand I would have the multi input...

I don't claim to have any magical ears, so it could be that I wouldn't hear the difference between the two. My main reason to go DAC is not necessarily audio quality, it's more getting audio out of the equation for system upgrade. This being said I like good quality sound (hence the HD800) so I want to make sure I get something decent.
If I make a wine analogy : I can clearly taste the difference between a 10$ bottle and a 100$ bottle. I probably cannot taste the difference between a 100$ and a 500$ bottle.

I'll put it this way since I misunderstood your question previously: I've heard many people who say they have trouble distinguishing the Modi Multibit from the Bifrost Multibit. If it were my decision, I'd go with the Modi Multibit. Just be aware that either DAC has to be left powered on if you want it to perform its best. Turning it on only when you're going to use it will not be effective if you want worthy sound from it

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Smith actually fits the Oracle's prophecy of "The One" better than Neo does! There is a whole theory on it, and it makes a very good argument for why Neo is just a powerful scrub.

Other than that, everything else is spot on! Take this guy's advice ^^

Or that other theory about how the "real" world with Zion is just another layer of the simulation, which explains why Neo can shut down machines in the "real" world.

Excuse me, but this is not clear : there are 3 Modi2 :
- "vanilla" : 99$
- "Uber" : 149$
- "Multibit" : 249$
I've mentionned my interest for the Multibit, so how is going to the Uber a 50$ investment ?
----
I don't disagree, but I never said I wanted to stick with the 99$ version.

I'm talking about the Uber over the "vanilla," sorry. Forgot you were looking at the Multibit.

In other words, is the driver issue plaguing the vanilla or the Multibit ?

I fully agree I don't want driver issues, and I am willing to pay to be on the safe side.

So based on this, I would understand the driver issue is only for the vanilla version?

Look at like a social science statistic. The problem could be plaguing all of them, since AFAIK they all use the same USB receiver chip, but the people who have the Uber and Multibit likely bought them so they can use SPDIF, so most of these people might not be aware their Win10 or Linux or even OSX machines have USB issues with their Modi Uber/Multibit, or even if they are, they're not posting as much about it, much less posting rants about how they have a useless metal brick. People using their USB with Androids are probably as common as the few who use them with PC USB, since those who use Androids as music servers bought them because they have a separate power supply (and hence don't draw power from the host device).

I took the wrong pill, sorry

How juicy is the steak?

But this answers half the question : for any soundcard or mobo to output SPDIF means they have to be recognized by Linux...I know the ZxR won't (no driver exist), for my mobo this should be OK (ALC1150)

On-board audio tends to have less driver issues if at least for running the SPDIF output.

As for SPDIF vs USB, you are most probably right, but I really want to externalize audio from my workstation, so I can have total freedom in the hardware I chose inside (eg : recent mobo use newer version of realtek chip that are barely recognized by Linux)

Now that might be a problem - check if that Realtek chip serves also handles DSP, because if it does, then it's what handles SPDIF output.

I live in Europe (Switzerland), and I will most likely ship from either US or UK (Modi Europe, even if prices are ludricrous). Would tubes survive this ?

People buy tubes and tube amps and ship them across the world all the time. It depends on the packing and how much of a dick the handlers are. Tube amps typically ship with the tube in a separate box (the kind you get when you buy the tube from the manufacturer) inside its own slot in the padding inside the amp's shipping box. Only tube amps with the tubes inside or barely sticking out ship withe tubes in, but AFAIK Schiit ships even the Lyr with the tubes not installed. As for the handlers, regardless of how the tube is packed, if you have somebody like that FedEx guy caught on CCTV tossing an HDTV over the fence, even a solid state amp can break. This is out of your control anyway.

my original question was : between the Modi 2 Multibit and the Bitfrost multibit, which one would you recommend ?
In both case, I understand I would have the multi input...

My internet's too damn slow right now but assuming the Bifrost Multibit already comes with the USB module (base Bifrost has the USB as an add-on, extra cost option) and you can spend on it then I guess you could get that. Bifrost has separate boards so some bits can be upgraded later on.

I don't claim to have any magical ears, so it could be that I wouldn't hear the difference between the two. My main reason to go DAC is not necessarily audio quality, it's more getting audio out of the equation for system upgrade. This being said I like good quality sound (hence the HD800) so I want to make sure I get something decent.
If I make a wine analogy : I can clearly taste the difference between a 10$ bottle and a 100$ bottle. I probably cannot taste the difference between a 100$ and a 500$ bottle.

The Modi2 and Modi2 Uber would be the $100 bottle and the Bifrost would be the $500 bottle.

With wines though given fairly decent enough wine the more important bit is whether the temperature they endured as they were shipped never got too high and not too long until they reached the warehouse at the other end, although this is a lot less of a problem for someone in Switzerland drinking wines from the region than someone like me in a tropical country where the local strawberry wine driven down overnight from the mountains and sold in the capital for $10 a bottle tastes better than French wine that sat in the container van across two oceans and then sat in port even longer thanks to our slooooooow (and really corrupt) Customs clearing.

 

[misooooo]

I'll put it this way since I misunderstood your question previously: I've heard many people who say they have trouble distinguishing the Modi Multibit from the Bifrost Multibit. If it were my decision, I'd go with the Modi Multibit. Just be aware that either DAC has to be left powered on if you want it to perform its best. Turning it on only when you're going to use it will not be effective if you want worthy sound from it

Could you explain why that is? Somewhat new to hifi, must have missed this somewhere. Does it apply to most DACs?

 

[Jubijub]

Or that other theory about how the "real" world with Zion is just another layer of the simulation, which explains why Neo can shut down machines in the "real" world.

Argh, this reminds me of early 2000, and of the disappointment about the sequels

I'm talking about the Uber over the "vanilla," sorry. Forgot you were looking at the Multibit.

Good, this is much clearer now !

Last question : why do they keep on mentionning 1meter USB cables ? I have a telescopic desk, so I need a longer cable, would this cause problems ?

Look at like a social science statistic. The problem could be plaguing all of them, since AFAIK they all use the same USB receiver chip, but the people who have the Uber and Multibit likely bought them so they can use SPDIF, so most of these people might not be aware their Win10 or Linux or even OSX machines have USB issues with their Modi Uber/Multibit, or even if they are, they're not posting as much about it, much less posting rants about how they have a useless metal brick. People using their USB with Androids are probably as common as the few who use them with PC USB, since those who use Androids as music servers bought them because they have a separate power supply (and hence don't draw power from the host device).

My question was more from an IT perspective : sometimes problem arise with super specific versions of a component. So if a device has it it is likely to get issues, and if it doesn't then you should be fine.

How juicy is the steak?

Ignorance is bliss

On-board audio tends to have less driver issues if at least for running the SPDIF output.

Now that might be a problem - check if that Realtek chip serves also handles DSP, because if it does, then it's what handles SPDIF output.

what I need to balance is the likelihood of mobo audio driver issue vs USB audio issues. Yum

People buy tubes and tube amps and ship them across the world all the time. It depends on the packing and how much of a dick the handlers are. Tube amps typically ship with the tube in a separate box (the kind you get when you buy the tube from the manufacturer) inside its own slot in the padding inside the amp's shipping box. Only tube amps with the tubes inside or barely sticking out ship withe tubes in, but AFAIK Schiit ships even the Lyr with the tubes not installed. As for the handlers, regardless of how the tube is packed, if you have somebody like that FedEx guy caught on CCTV tossing an HDTV over the fence, even a solid state amp can break. This is out of your control anyway.

Fair enough, I will consider the Vali. We do agree that I can plug my powered desktop speaker, and that they will work as soon as I unplug the headphones ? The spec talk about the pre-amp out, but not about the switch part (while the one for the Magni 3 does mention it specifically)

My internet's too damn slow right now but assuming the Bifrost Multibit already comes with the USB module (base Bifrost has the USB as an add-on, extra cost option) and you can spend on it then I guess you could get that. Bifrost has separate boards so some bits can be upgraded later on.

The multibit does have the USB

The Modi2 and Modi2 Uber would be the $100 bottle and the Bifrost would be the $500 bottle.

Fair enough

With wines though given fairly decent enough wine the more important bit is whether the temperature they endured as they were shipped never got too high and not too long until they reached the warehouse at the other end, although this is a lot less of a problem for someone in Switzerland drinking wines from the region than someone like me in a tropical country where the local strawberry wine driven down overnight from the mountains and sold in the capital for $10 a bottle tastes better than French wine that sat in the container van across two oceans and then sat in port even longer thanks to our slooooooow (and really corrupt) Customs clearing.

if you wait too long it turns into port wine...but not intentionally

 

[cossix]

Could you explain why that is? Somewhat new to hifi, must have missed this somewhere. Does it apply to most DACs?

Only applies to Schiit's Multibit Dac's. They operate best at thermal equilibrium, when internal temperatures are all equal. Can't explain the science behind it but that piece of advise comes from Schiit themselves

 

[cossix]

And as for your cable length, it really shouldn't matter unless you're using a crap $2 cable. And then maybe itll matter.

 

[Jubijub]

I looked at the MTBF of tubes on schiit website. Basically this means I cannot leave the amp on 24/7, and that I should really turn it off when not in use ?

 

[buke9]

Could you explain why that is? Somewhat new to hifi, must have missed this somewhere. Does it apply to most DACs?

I own a Yggdrasil and can say with out a doubt you should never turn it off unless you give it a good 24 hours to get back to temp as it will sound very harsh but once back up to temp the same Yggy goodness.