Which DAC would be a better buy?
Sep 1, 2014 at 1:11 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 13

Pensel

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Hi, I'm looking to replace my current DAC which hisses a lot when I pair it with my earphones. Connected to my laptop all the time.
 
Looking at these 2:
 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0093KZTEA/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3S2OI7XGPV9FS
 
http://www.amazon.com/Signstek-192Khz-Coaxial-Optical-Headphone/dp/B00GTACPAS/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt
 
Is the second link that much better than the Muse PCM2704?
 
Main criteria: Cannot hiss with my earphone (Yamaha EPH 100)
 
Also, are both better than the Creative E1 in terms of sound quality? http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Headphone-Amplifier-Integrated-Smartphones/dp/B00J2JATL0/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
 
Sep 1, 2014 at 2:15 PM Post #2 of 13
  Hi, I'm looking to replace my current DAC which hisses a lot when I pair it with my earphones. Connected to my laptop all the time.
Looking at these 2:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0093KZTEA/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3S2OI7XGPV9FS
http://www.amazon.com/Signstek-192Khz-Coaxial-Optical-Headphone/dp/B00GTACPAS/ref=pd_sxp_f_pt
Is the second link that much better than the Muse PCM2704?
Main criteria: Cannot hiss with my earphone (Yamaha EPH 100)
Also, are both better than the Creative E1 in terms of sound quality? http://www.amazon.com/Creative-Headphone-Amplifier-Integrated-Smartphones/dp/B00J2JATL0/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

 
The first two links are products both made my Muse.
The first one uses a PCM2704 16-bit/44.1K DAC chip, the PCM2704 is a very good DAC chip, for it's price.
I've used about 4 or 5 of these types (different brands) of low cost DACs, some sell for as low as $13 (ELE EL-D01)
 
The second Muse comes with a 24-bit/192k DAC chip, which I'm assuming would not make a (noticeable) difference for music (CD audio) or games.
But might make a difference for the more modern Blu-ray audio movies, maybe(?) HD FLAC audio (24-bit/92K).
 
Not sure about the Creative E1.
 
Sep 1, 2014 at 2:19 PM Post #3 of 13
   
The first two links are products both made my Muse.
The first one uses a PCM2704 16-bit/44.1K DAC chip, the PCM2704 is a very good DAC chip, for it's price.
I've used about 4 or 5 of these types (different brands) of low cost DACs, some sell for as low as $13 (ELE EL-D01)
 
The second Muse comes with a 24-bit/192k DAC chip, which I'm assuming would not make a (noticeable) difference for music (CD audio) or games.
But might make a difference for the more modern Blu-ray audio movies, maybe(?) HD FLAC audio (24-bit/92K).
 
Not sure about the Creative E1.


Any hiss for the PCM2704 when used with an IEM?
 
Thanks btw.
 
Sep 1, 2014 at 3:58 PM Post #6 of 13
  Any hiss for the PCM2704 when used with an IEM?
Thanks btw.

 
In general I do not hear hiss from these DACs, but these types of DAC are mass produced products in some factory over in Asia.
Where the low selling price means they may not used name brand parts from a Japanese company
not get a lot of quality control testing before leaving the factory.
But I do not think they had a "hiss" issue.
But your hiss might not be a DAC issue.
 
On another point, chances are your IEMs are low Ohm (low impedance), so these low cost DACs with built in low cost headphone amplifiers might have a high output impedance, which is not the best way to drive low impedance (Ohm) headphones.
 
The FiiO E10K USB DAC/amp ($75) would do a better job of driving your IEMs.
It has an headphone output impedance of less then 1-Ohm :)
Should have enough power to be able to drive headphone rated from 8-Ohms to 250-Ohms :)
 
Sep 1, 2014 at 4:09 PM Post #7 of 13
 
Ahhh I see.
 
Well, I don't think I have a choice anyway to choose either DAC or Amp. I'll be connecting the device to my laptop via USB and then to my IEM using the headphone jack

 
FiiO E10K USB DAC/Amp, $75
 
Sep 1, 2014 at 4:14 PM Post #8 of 13
   
In general I do not hear hiss from these DACs, but these types of DAC are mass produced products in some factory over in Asia.
Where the low selling price means they may not used name brand parts from a Japanese company
not get a lot of quality control testing before leaving the factory.
But I do not think they had a "hiss" issue.
But your hiss might not be a DAC issue.
 
On another point, chances are your IEMs are low Ohm (low impedance), so these low cost DACs with built in low cost headphone amplifiers might have a high output impedance, which is not the best way to drive low impedance (Ohm) headphones.
 
The FiiO E10K USB DAC/amp ($75) would do a better job of driving your IEMs.
It has an headphone output impedance of less then 1-Ohm :)
Should have enough power to be able to drive headphone rated from 8-Ohms to 250-Ohms :)


Hi, actually I don't know what is impedance and how it causes hiss/noise? How do I know the impedance of each DAC? Is it the Signal to Noise ratio?
 
Higher impedance or lower impedance is better?
 
Actually the Yamaha EPH-100 is in delivery to my place. My current DAC, the Xonar U1 hiss when used with various IEMs (I've tried like 3-4 IEMS with it) and by googling a bit, it seems common with the DAC.
 
The EPH 100 is an IEM btw and I also heard that "sensitive" IEMs may cause hissing too?

The creative E1 is rated at 106dB SnR http://au.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-e1
 
I've read that the E1 is fine with hiss from a few sources but one single remark on reddit mentioned there's hiss with IEM :frowning2:
 
Sep 1, 2014 at 4:37 PM Post #9 of 13
 
Hi, actually I don't know what is impedance and how it causes hiss/noise? How do I know the impedance of each DAC? Is it the Signal to Noise ratio?
Higher impedance or lower impedance is better?
Actually the Yamaha EPH-100 is in delivery to my place. My current DAC, the Xonar U1 hiss when used with various IEMs (I've tried like 3-4 IEMS with it) and by googling a bit, it seems common with the DAC.
The EPH 100 is an IEM btw and I also heard that "sensitive" IEMs may cause hissing too?
The creative E1 is rated at 106dB SnR http://au.creative.com/p/sound-blaster/sound-blaster-e1
I've read that the E1 is fine with hiss from a few sources but one single remark on reddit mentioned there's hiss with IEM :frowning2:

 
Impedance issues usually causes things like a bloated bass or loss of detail.
I'm guessing the Hiss issue with the U1, might be an over all issue with the Xonar U1, not just a DAC issue.
the Creative E1 might not cause a hiss issue, I just have not done much reading on it.
 
Sep 1, 2014 at 5:33 PM Post #10 of 13
 
Hi, actually I don't know what is impedance and how it causes hiss/noise? How do I know the impedance of each DAC? Is it the Signal to Noise ratio?
 
Higher impedance or lower impedance is better?

I'm going to give you a somewhat detailed explanation which you don't want or need, because I feel like typing something.
 
Impedance is resistance. You have two impedances to consider:
 
Headphone impedance
 
This determines the relationship between the voltage, current, and power the headphone receives from the amplifier. The power a headphone receives from a given voltage is defined as P = V^2/R, where P is power in Watts and R is impedance is ohms. As you can probably see, higher impedance means less power, so if two headphones have the same sensitivity (usually decibels per milliwatt) the one with the higher impedance will require more voltage to reach the same volume. This is why most portables, and IEMs in particular are designed with low impedance: portable players often have very limited voltage output.
 
However, because Power = Voltage * Current, and low impedance headphones draw more power from the same voltage, they must also draw more current. This makes them a more "difficult" load from the amp's perspective, increasing noise, distortion, and other things. That's why a lot of high-end headphones have a high impedance, as it improves performance of the system. These days it's pretty easy to make an amp which has inaudible noise and distortion even into low impedance loads, so no big deal.
 
Output impedance
 
This is an aspect of the amplifier, not the headphones. When an amp has an output impedance, it acts as a voltage divider when driving headphones. This means it will absorb some of the voltage the amp is producing. The lower the impedance of the headphone the amp is driving, the more voltage will be divided and the less will reach the headphones, leading to lower volumes and more heat generated by the amp. This is problematic for a few reasons:
 
Many headphones don't just have one impedance across all frequencies, their impedance changes across the spectrum. Because output impedance has a larger affect on voltage at low impedances, frequencies with a high impedance will receive relatively more voltage and sound louder. This is usually inaudible unless the headphone has very wild changes in impedance (like in balanced armature IEMs with crossovers) or if the ratio of the output impedance to load impedance is very high (even some 300 ohm headphones can be affected by 120 ohm output impedance).
 
High output impedance can reduce electrical damping. You can determine the damping factor by dividing the headphone impedance by the output impedance. If the damping factor is low, the amp will have trouble controlling the headphone driver, causing it to bounce back and forth instead of stop ("ringing"). This will be most noticeable in bass distortion and roll-off of sub-bass.
 
In both cases it's advisable to have a damping factor of 8 or more (that is, an output impedance that is 1/8 the headphone impedance). The higher the better; you can't have too low output impedance.
 
USB DACs are usually not designed to drive headphones, even if they have a plug for them. DACs normally have high output impedance because they're designed simply to feed a low current signal into a high impedance load like an amp. If they don't have a dedicated headphone amp, they may just be routing the headphone plug through the same high impedance circuitry. And unfortunately the output impedance is rarely listed in the specs.
 
You'll have low output impedance and high damping factor for sure with the E10K, it has a dedicated amp. With the others you listed you're gambling. Both on what their impedance is, and if you'll even hear the difference it makes.
 
---------------------------------
 
Probably none of this has to do with the hissing, as that's a noise and sensitivity issue.
 
Sep 1, 2014 at 6:44 PM Post #11 of 13
  I'm going to give you a somewhat detailed explanation which you don't want or need, because I feel like typing something.
Impedance is resistance. You have two impedances to consider:
Headphone impedance
This determines the relationship between the voltage, current, and power the headphone receives from the amplifier. The power a headphone receives from a given voltage is defined as P = V^2/R, where P is power in Watts and R is impedance is ohms. As you can probably see, higher impedance means less power, so if two headphones have the same sensitivity (usually decibels per milliwatt) the one with the higher impedance will require more voltage to reach the same volume. This is why most portables, and IEMs in particular are designed with low impedance: portable players often have very limited voltage output.
However, because Power = Voltage * Current, and low impedance headphones draw more power from the same voltage, they must also draw more current. This makes them a more "difficult" load from the amp's perspective, increasing noise, distortion, and other things. That's why a lot of high-end headphones have a high impedance, as it improves performance of the system. These days it's pretty easy to make an amp which has inaudible noise and distortion even into low impedance loads, so no big deal.
Output impedance
This is an aspect of the amplifier, not the headphones. When an amp has an output impedance, it acts as a voltage divider when driving headphones. This means it will absorb some of the voltage the amp is producing. The lower the impedance of the headphone the amp is driving, the more voltage will be divided and the less will reach the headphones, leading to lower volumes and more heat generated by the amp. This is problematic for a few reasons:
Many headphones don't just have one impedance across all frequencies, their impedance changes across the spectrum. Because output impedance has a larger affect on voltage at low impedances, frequencies with a high impedance will receive relatively more voltage and sound louder. This is usually inaudible unless the headphone has very wild changes in impedance (like in balanced armature IEMs with crossovers) or if the ratio of the output impedance to load impedance is very high (even some 300 ohm headphones can be affected by 120 ohm output impedance).
High output impedance can reduce electrical damping. You can determine the damping factor by dividing the headphone impedance by the output impedance. If the damping factor is low, the amp will have trouble controlling the headphone driver, causing it to bounce back and forth instead of stop ("ringing"). This will be most noticeable in bass distortion and roll-off of sub-bass.
In both cases it's advisable to have a damping factor of 8 or more (that is, an output impedance that is 1/8 the headphone impedance). The higher the better; you can't have too low output impedance.
USB DACs are usually not designed to drive headphones, even if they have a plug for them. DACs normally have high output impedance because they're designed simply to feed a low current signal into a high impedance load like an amp. If they don't have a dedicated headphone amp, they may just be routing the headphone plug through the same high impedance circuitry. And unfortunately the output impedance is rarely listed in the specs.
You'll have low output impedance and high damping factor for sure with the E10K, it has a dedicated amp. With the others you listed you're gambling. Both on what their impedance is, and if you'll even hear the difference it makes.

 
Head Injury, you should keep this handy for a paste/copy, for future posts.
 
Sep 2, 2014 at 2:48 AM Post #12 of 13
   
FiiO E10K USB DAC/Amp, $75

 
  I'm going to give you a somewhat detailed explanation which you don't want or need, because I feel like typing something.
 
Impedance is resistance. You have two impedances to consider:
 
Headphone impedance
 
This determines the relationship between the voltage, current, and power the headphone receives from the amplifier. The power a headphone receives from a given voltage is defined as P = V^2/R, where P is power in Watts and R is impedance is ohms. As you can probably see, higher impedance means less power, so if two headphones have the same sensitivity (usually decibels per milliwatt) the one with the higher impedance will require more voltage to reach the same volume. This is why most portables, and IEMs in particular are designed with low impedance: portable players often have very limited voltage output.
 
However, because Power = Voltage * Current, and low impedance headphones draw more power from the same voltage, they must also draw more current. This makes them a more "difficult" load from the amp's perspective, increasing noise, distortion, and other things. That's why a lot of high-end headphones have a high impedance, as it improves performance of the system. These days it's pretty easy to make an amp which has inaudible noise and distortion even into low impedance loads, so no big deal.
 
Output impedance
 
This is an aspect of the amplifier, not the headphones. When an amp has an output impedance, it acts as a voltage divider when driving headphones. This means it will absorb some of the voltage the amp is producing. The lower the impedance of the headphone the amp is driving, the more voltage will be divided and the less will reach the headphones, leading to lower volumes and more heat generated by the amp. This is problematic for a few reasons:
 
Many headphones don't just have one impedance across all frequencies, their impedance changes across the spectrum. Because output impedance has a larger affect on voltage at low impedances, frequencies with a high impedance will receive relatively more voltage and sound louder. This is usually inaudible unless the headphone has very wild changes in impedance (like in balanced armature IEMs with crossovers) or if the ratio of the output impedance to load impedance is very high (even some 300 ohm headphones can be affected by 120 ohm output impedance).
 
High output impedance can reduce electrical damping. You can determine the damping factor by dividing the headphone impedance by the output impedance. If the damping factor is low, the amp will have trouble controlling the headphone driver, causing it to bounce back and forth instead of stop ("ringing"). This will be most noticeable in bass distortion and roll-off of sub-bass.
 
In both cases it's advisable to have a damping factor of 8 or more (that is, an output impedance that is 1/8 the headphone impedance). The higher the better; you can't have too low output impedance.
 
USB DACs are usually not designed to drive headphones, even if they have a plug for them. DACs normally have high output impedance because they're designed simply to feed a low current signal into a high impedance load like an amp. If they don't have a dedicated headphone amp, they may just be routing the headphone plug through the same high impedance circuitry. And unfortunately the output impedance is rarely listed in the specs.
 
You'll have low output impedance and high damping factor for sure with the E10K, it has a dedicated amp. With the others you listed you're gambling. Both on what their impedance is, and if you'll even hear the difference it makes.
 
---------------------------------
 
Probably none of this has to do with the hissing, as that's a noise and sensitivity issue.


Thanks guys! It will take me some time to digest that :D
 
And yeah, I'm looking at the Fiio E10k. My Yamaha EPH-100 is rated at 16ohm. 100% won't hiss with the Fiio E10K?
 
Sep 3, 2014 at 12:21 AM Post #13 of 13
   

Thanks guys! It will take me some time to digest that :D
 
And yeah, I'm looking at the Fiio E10k. My Yamaha EPH-100 is rated at 16ohm. 100% won't hiss with the Fiio E10K?

No clue 
tongue.gif
 I don't actually own one, but I know one reviewer said the original E10 may hiss with sensitive IEMs. The EPH-100 isn't really sensitive though, not like balanced armature IEMs.
 
You can also consider the E7K. The same reviewer found almost no hiss in the E7, even with IEMs much more sensitive than yours, thanks in part to its lower power. However, it measured worse in almost every way and costs a little more.
 
I wish I knew more of the specs on the ones in your opening post. Cheaper is better for you, since if it hisses you can just toss it out and try again, but I don't want to recommend them without knowing at least the output impedance and max power of the headphone out.
 

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