[ezil71]

I am just getting into decent headphones but am not new to audio.  I've been a musician nearly all my life (45) and have a very good ear by comparison to most so I like detailed sound that is near neutral, but not sibilant with a touch of warmth for a more natural sound.
 
I listen to all kinds of music but more acoustic/piano/jazz/female vocals (Jonatha Brooke/Grace Potter/Nora Jones/Sara Bareilles/Beth Hart/Ray LaMontagne and all kinds of blues/rock/classical and alternative).  Also for TV use/watching concert DVD's etc.
 
I'm looking for my 'next level' cans in the sub $300 range.
 
Here are some that I have experienced:
 
M50's - the originals, not the x - lack of sound stage, muddy bass, no mids decent highs
 
M40x - I liked the overall balance, maybe a touch lacking in mids, liked the bass but lacking clarity and detail and soundstage
 
SR80's - loved the detail but way too bright and like it was missing half the mids and nearly everything below.  Extremely uncomfortable
 
598's - liked the overall balance, decent soundstage but too muddy/veiled and lacking in detail.  Not very comfortable (ears felt like they didn't fit well/crushed).  Better when on high gain but still too veiled/lacking in detail for my taste
 
SHP 9500 - really love the detail, best I've heard.  Just a touch thin/bright and not quite as balanced at a few points.  Close to what I am after but I'm hoping for better soundstage and a slightly fuller warmer sound without losing the detail, a touch better bass, more like the m40's but with detail.
 
Some IEM's I've tried or own:
 
1More Triple Driver - pretty decent but felt like they were missing random gaps across the frequency, a very odd feeling
 
Soundmagic E50 - muddy/dull, not horrible just didn't like them
 
Brainwaves Delta - 'almost' kept them.  Liked the sound a lot for a cheaper IEM but the sibilance was a deal breaker - painful at random points which is too bad because I liked the soundstage and just about everything else.
 
 
 
 
For gear I am running a shiit modi 2 uber/magni 2 uber and also have a bravo 2 with a gold lion tube as well, fed from either lossless on my PC or an optical from my HT system.
 
 
Based on what I've heard I think I'm looking for something that lies between the 9500's and the 598's.  The detail and clarity and comfort of the 9500's with the balance and soundstage of the 598 minus the veil.  Just a 'touch' warmer than the 9500's in the highs.  Low end closer to the m40x's but without covering any mids.  
 
Based on my research I'm considering:
 
Fidelio L2 - if I can find them at a reasonable price still, X2 seems like it would be too bass heavy and lacking in mids
 
7XX or 712's - I haven't heard AKG not sure how thin vs full sounding they are compared to what I have heard above
 
PSB M4U 1 - seems like perhaps a good fit but I don't know much about them
 
I don't think the HD600 or 650s would be good based on my experience with the 598's
 
Unfortunately I don't have a good place to demo anywhere near me.
 
Thanks for any feedback or suggestions - Ed

 

[serman005]

  I am just getting into decent headphones but am not new to audio.  I've been a musician nearly all my life (45) and have a very good ear by comparison to most so I like detailed sound that is near neutral, but not sibilant with a touch of warmth for a more natural sound.
 
I listen to all kinds of music but more acoustic/piano/jazz/female vocals (Jonatha Brooke/Grace Potter/Nora Jones/Sara Bareilles/Beth Hart/Ray LaMontagne and all kinds of blues/rock/classical and alternative).  Also for TV use/watching concert DVD's etc.
 
I'm looking for my 'next level' cans in the sub $300 range.
 
Here are some that I have experienced:
 
M50's - the originals, not the x - lack of sound stage, muddy bass, no mids decent highs
 
M40x - I liked the overall balance, maybe a touch lacking in mids, liked the bass but lacking clarity and detail and soundstage
 
SR80's - loved the detail but way too bright and like it was missing half the mids and nearly everything below.  Extremely uncomfortable
 
598's - liked the overall balance, decent soundstage but too muddy/veiled and lacking in detail.  Not very comfortable (ears felt like they didn't fit well/crushed).  Better when on high gain but still too veiled/lacking in detail for my taste
 
SHP 9500 - really love the detail, best I've heard.  Just a touch thin/bright and not quite as balanced at a few points.  Close to what I am after but I'm hoping for better soundstage and a slightly fuller warmer sound without losing the detail, a touch better bass, more like the m40's but with detail.
 
Some IEM's I've tried or own:
 
1More Triple Driver - pretty decent but felt like they were missing random gaps across the frequency, a very odd feeling
 
Soundmagic E50 - muddy/dull, not horrible just didn't like them
 
Brainwaves Delta - 'almost' kept them.  Liked the sound a lot for a cheaper IEM but the sibilance was a deal breaker - painful at random points which is too bad because I liked the soundstage and just about everything else.
 
 
 
 
For gear I am running a shiit modi 2 uber/magni 2 uber and also have a bravo 2 with a gold lion tube as well, fed from either lossless on my PC or an optical from my HT system.
 
 
Based on what I've heard I think I'm looking for something that lies between the 9500's and the 598's.  The detail and clarity and comfort of the 9500's with the balance and soundstage of the 598 minus the veil.  Just a 'touch' warmer than the 9500's in the highs.  Low end closer to the m40x's but without covering any mids.  
 
Based on my research I'm considering:
 
Fidelio L2 - if I can find them at a reasonable price still, X2 seems like it would be too bass heavy and lacking in mids
 
7XX or 712's - I haven't heard AKG not sure how thin vs full sounding they are compared to what I have heard above
 
PSB M4U 1 - seems like perhaps a good fit but I don't know much about them
 
I don't think the HD600 or 650s would be good based on my experience with the 598's
 
Thanks for any feedback or suggestions - Ed

Given your rather detailed list of requirements, I think you ought to look at an HE400S or an HE400i. Both are more detailed than the SHP9500 or the 598 and the 400S is indeed somewhat warm. Both excellent headphones. You might also consider an HD600, still one of the most neutral headphones out there.

 

[ezil71]

​Thanks - are the highs on the 600's rolled off/veiled like the 598's?  I get the impression they may lack bass since I've heard the 9500 are better?
 
Are the HE400 S/I considered closer to the 598's or the 9500's in terms of tonality?  I think the tonality I am after is closer to the audio technica M40's in terms of brightness but I'm not sure such a thing exists that has the detail I'm after.

 

[serman005]

 
​Thanks - are the highs on the 600's rolled off/veiled like the 598's?  I get the impression they may lack bass since I've heard the 9500 are better?
 
Are the HE400 S/I considered closer to the 598's or the 9500's in terms of tonality?  I think the tonality I am after is closer to the audio technica M40's in terms of brightness but I'm not sure such a thing exists that has the detail I'm after.

There is a bit of that veiling on the 600 in my opinion, but less than on the 598. It is much more detailed than the 598 as well. I would say the 400S/i are more similar to the 9500 than the 598. They are much more detailed than the 9500. The 400S, BTW,  doesn't need an amp--it can be run straight out of a phone or ipod no problem. The 400i needs an amp.

 

[ezil71]

I'm curious to know more about the psb m4u 1 and how it compares to anything I've listed above.

 

[Heals]

  I'm curious to know more about the psb m4u 1 and how it compares to anything I've listed above.

I'm not sure how much this will help if at all, but I did have a pair of M4U1's for a while. It does seem to fit your requirements in comparison to the SHP's (which I also owned), they have better bass making them more rounded than the Philips, and they are slightly warmer up top keeping the detail and clarity. I actually preferred them to the NAD Viso HP50 (which is hilarious given they are basically the same). I have not tried any other sets on your list however, but I will say that I actually regret selling the PSB's. Worth a listen if you can purchase them from somewhere with a no questions asked return policy for sure.

 

[ezil71]

The PSB's are definitely on my short list but I'm a bit concerned about the reports of cracked headbands.  
 
Looks to me like the plastic just doesn't hold up well.  If they were as nicely built as something like the MSR7's I'd buy them right now.  Looking at the PSB vs something like the k712's, it's clear the 712's would last much longer in that regard.

 

[MtnMan307]

I really like the K7XX, pretty much a home run at $200 on Massdrop.  I do want to try the HE400i and/or the Senn 650/6xx.  
 
The K7 sounds pretty full to me and the bass goes pretty deep for an open-backed headphone. I started out with the M50x and the only thing they have over the K7 series is isolation, being a closed can, but they never get used anymore.  The K7xx went from very good with only my Vali 2 amp, to excellent when I added the Modi 2 Multibit DAC.  

 

[JoHit]

I would still give the 600's a chance even though you're not a fan of the 598's. They are a slightly veiled like another poster said, but nothing like the 598, definitely more detailed, and they are the  most neutral headphone that Sennheiser produces. The highs aren't rolled off either.

 

[ezil71]

Yeah, I need to figure out how to listen to the 600's so I have some better hands on comparisons.  I was thinking of trying to grab the Massdrop 6XX if/when they ever came back but I suspect those might be too dark for me since they are 650's.  
 
My SHP9500 with the Modi2 uber and Bravo2 with the gold lion tube is pretty good at the moment.  The gold lion tube is much better than either the stock bravo 2 or the groove tube I tried.  It adds some reverb/sound stage and is fairly balanced, adding a touch of warmth while smoothing the highs on the 9500's just the right amount.
 
I was watching Sara Bareilles live at the Fillmore DVD yesterday and it was a really great setup.  Sounded very real.  The DVD is nicely produced so I'm sure that was part of it too.

 

[ezil71]

I'm picking up some 400i's, It was either those or I was going to check out the T50RP MK3's but given the mods needed and the price of the 400i's it was only a bit more for them.  Hopefully I will find them 'warm enough'.

 

[ezil71]

 

Well I finally picked up some HD600's.  I get why people like them, but to me something isn't right about them.  I'm running them through a modi2 uber/magni 2 uber stack so there should be plenty of power.
 
The mids are veiled and a bit too recessed.  Depends a bit on recording.
 
The sound stage is pretty darn small and imaging isn't as good as I would have expected.
 
If I forget about the veil for a minute, I do like the overall tone and balance aside from the staging/recessed mids.  Lows seem a bit muddy but I haven't broken them in much.  The bass seems accurate, just not precise.
 
Honestly, even though I know they are lacking in fullness I prefer my SHP 9500's because they have the detail and at least better staging and imaging.
 
I know a lot of people like the 600's, and perhaps with some break in I might like them more, but they haven't impressed me.
 
Would the 400S be closer to what I'm describing?  Like the 9500's with more fullness?  
 
I didn't end up getting the 400i,
 
I'm thinking of returning the 600's and trying out either the 400S or perhaps the ZMF Classics, Mayflower 1 or even just the stock MK3's with different pads.
 
Where would you go next given my impressions of the 600's?

 

[serman005]

  Well I finally picked up some HD600's.  I get why people like them, but to me something isn't right about them.  I'm running them through a modi2 uber/magni 2 uber stack so there should be plenty of power.
 
The mids are veiled and a bit too recessed.  Depends a bit on recording.
 
The sound stage is pretty darn small and imaging isn't as good as I would have expected.
 
If I forget about the veil for a minute, I do like the overall tone and balance aside from the staging/recessed mids.  Lows seem a bit muddy but I haven't broken them in much.  The bass seems accurate, just not precise.
 
Honestly, even though I know they are lacking in fullness I prefer my SHP 9500's because they have the detail and at least better staging and imaging.
 
I know a lot of people like the 600's, and perhaps with some break in I might like them more, but they haven't impressed me.
 
Would the 400S be closer to what I'm describing?  Like the 9500's with more fullness?  
 
I didn't end up getting the 400i,
 
I'm thinking of returning the 600's and trying out either the 400S or perhaps the ZMF Classics, Mayflower 1 or even just the stock MK3's with different pads.
 
Where would you go next given my impressions of the 600's?

That's disappointing. The 400S is lighter and slightly less detailed in the bass, IMO. The stage is much larger and the treble is comparatively slightly emphasized.  There is no mids recession. There is no veil. It is very detailed. It may be a better option for you. Or, the ZMF may be. Or, you might give your 600 an opportunity to burn in. You have some options.

 

[buke9]

Well I finally picked up some HD600's.  I get why people like them, but to me something isn't right about them.  I'm running them through a modi2 uber/magni 2 uber stack so there should be plenty of power.

The mids are veiled and a bit too recessed.  Depends a bit on recording.

The sound stage is pretty darn small and imaging isn't as good as I would have expected.

If I forget about the veil for a minute, I do like the overall tone and balance aside from the staging/recessed mids.  Lows seem a bit muddy but I haven't broken them in much.  The bass seems accurate, just not precise.

Honestly, even though I know they are lacking in fullness I prefer my SHP 9500's because they have the detail and at least better staging and imaging.

I know a lot of people like the 600's, and perhaps with some break in I might like them more, but they haven't impressed me.

Would the 400S be closer to what I'm describing?  Like the 9500's with more fullness?  

I didn't end up getting the 400i,

I'm thinking of returning the 600's and trying out either the 400S or perhaps the ZMF Classics, Mayflower 1 or even just the stock MK3's with different pads.

Where would you go next given my impressions of the 600's?

How long have you had them? You brain needs to adjust to a different sound signature at least a week. You say mids are veiled but that is a neutral headphone all tend to be equally balanced. I would give them a bit more time and then if you don't like them send them back. They like the 650's have a very small soundstage did someone elude they had a wide one? I don't own the 600's and have only a little time hearing them so I can't comment on the rest of their sound signature as it has been awhile but the 650's have very good detail but lack in soundstage as well. If soundstage is what you want spend a bit more for the HD-700's and you will have it with great detail and imaging. If you have had a headphone for awhile you get so used to that signature that if something is not the same you tend to reject it.

 

[ezil71]

I understand re: break in, although I disagree about just getting used to a sound.  I likely have a more picky ear than average, I can hear details and levels that not everyone can (like .5 db adjustments on a sub or surround being the difference between OK, and just right).
 
Does anyone have any listening time with the latest ZMF Classic based on the MK3?  
 
I've very curious to know more about their sound and most of the info I can find is around the MK2 version.  Judging by the graphs I've found I could imagine they might be too dark for me, but on the other hand the slope of the graphs look really smooth and they might be perfect for me.
 
The challenge with those is that I couldn't return them since they have custom pads (at least that is what I could get from looking at the zmf site).
 
The Mayflower looks like a valid option except for the highs which may be a touch too forward.  I would probably opt to just mod them myself using their kit.
 
From what I can tell the stock MK3's would be a bit like I'm hearing from the 600's in the mids being a bit recessed.