Where is the sweet spot for quality headphones?
Dec 1, 2014 at 3:11 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 19

shnjb

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I have bought and lost many earphones and headphones but now I'm old enough to realize that I would rather buy a quality set that would last a long time.
 
But I really don't have a clue where is the sweet spot for headphones.
 
For instance, with cars, you have the entry level range (up to $15000), mid-range family car ($15000 - 30000), entry-level luxury ($30000 - $45000), mid-level luxury ($45000 - $70000), high-level luxury ($70000 - $150000), and true high-end cars which have their own range from entry level to varying levels of exclusivity ($150000 - $2000000).
 
I've noticed that most headphones that are around $200 receive moderately positive reviews but don't usually seem to have the look of a premium product but at the same time, I have no idea what I'm getting in terms of quality between $200 to $1000.
 
What is the starting point for quality material, quality craftmanship, quality sound and some creature comforts and features (e.g. good isolation, comfortable wrap around your ears, nice carrying case, etc)?
What is the sort of "Rolls Royce" or "ferrari" of headphones?  
 
Dec 1, 2014 at 9:26 AM Post #2 of 19
I personally don't think the car analogy works with headphones, at least in terms of build quality.
 
For example, Tralucent 1+2 IEM (~$1,000) uses cheap plastic housing with flimsy cable. On the other hand, Yamaha EPH 100 IEM (~$100) uses metal as construction and is built like a tank.
 
I can give you more examples with full sized headphones. Sennheiser HD650 (~$400), though well built, the quality of materials used for construction is not as premium as the cheaper Sennheiser Momentum Over Ear (~$200). HD650 uses mostly plastic and common velour, while Momentum uses fine aluminum metal and real lamb skin leather.
 
I will now answer your questions in your final paragraph. Even flagship headphones such as HD800  (~$1,500) or LCD 3 (~$2,000) lack a lot of features. HD800 do not isolate at all since it is an open back headphone. Despite using luxurious materials, LCD 3 is not comfortable for a lot of people due to the sheer weight of the headphone. Not to mention both of them are not portable headphones. You will get weird looks from people if you wear HD800 or LCD 3 on a bus for instance.
 
What is the "Ferrari" of headphones? I say any headphones from Beats. I know nothing about cars, but from my experience of riding a Ferrari, that car is overpriced through the roof. It's certainly not the safest car to ride. I personally found it uncomfortable due to my height. Only two people can ride on it. There are other cheaper cars with better design/aesthetic to my eyes.
 
What is the "Rolls Royce" of headphones? Maybe Sony R10. The headphone has a similar vintage design and feel like Rolls Royce. Built with high quality materials, such as precious wood and leather. It is a closed back headphone, so it will at the very least isolate more than open back headphones. Mighty comfortable. Finally, it is rare and expensive for a decent reason, in my opinion.
 
My only advice to you, is to not pay attention to price much. High price does not equate to high quality headphones. Both in terms of build quality and sound. Instead, simply research for good headphones. 
 
Dec 1, 2014 at 2:03 PM Post #3 of 19
Thank you for your thoughtful response.

Searching for the right headphones is pretty difficult.
Once you go beyond the m50, it seems wide open in terms of opinions.
 
Dec 1, 2014 at 7:25 PM Post #4 of 19
In terms of diminishing returns, I think the sweet spot is somewhere around $300, although my two current mainstays, the SoundMAGIC HP150s and the AKG K 550s, only cost me $200 each.  I think they sound fantastic, among the best I've heard. 
 
Dec 1, 2014 at 8:40 PM Post #5 of 19
In terms of diminishing returns, I think the sweet spot is somewhere around $300, although my two current mainstays, the SoundMAGIC HP150s and the AKG K 550s, only cost me $200 each.  I think they sound fantastic, among the best I've heard. 


What is around $300 that would be a great pair? K550 and hp150 would be as good as $300 pairs?
 
Dec 1, 2014 at 9:10 PM Post #6 of 19
I think they are as good as $300 headphones.  The only ones I can think of at the moment are HD 600s and maybe Beyer DT 880/990.  It starts to come down to sound signature preference at this point, IMO.
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 1:12 AM Post #7 of 19
I'd say $200-300.  For open back I'd aim for HD650s.  From what I've seen they have neutral frequency response, low distortion, and excellent decay.  Those usually go for more like $400 though and require a good amp.  In that same performance bracket you have the DT990 pro and Q701/K701 which both go for about $200.  Those all have low distortion and great decay, but need a little bit of an equalizer to be neutral.  The DT990 need to be cut by ~4-6dB from 4-9kHz.  The Q701 and K701 need the midrange to be cut a bit (around 1kHz if I remember correctly).  I believe the q and k versions are basically the same headphone.  Note that the consumer version of the DT990 are $100 more and from what I've read the band is looser (more comfortable) and come in a 600 ohm version which is marginally better.  It's up to you if you want to spend an extra 50% on marginally better comfort and marginally better sound that will require a more powerful amp.
 
Closed back is a little bit more difficult.  There's the M50x for $150, the DT770 for $200ish.  And not much else.  I know there's a few more but I don't have enough knowledge of them to recommend them (shure etc).
 
I own the DT990 pros and they sound great.  They need an amp to get to medium to high volume just like the HD650/Q701/K701 will need.  They are extremely comfortable and are built really well.  And they sound great.  If you look up reviews you'll read they are fatiguing.  That doesn't mean the treble is bad.  It is very clean and has excellent decay,  it is just too loud.  Cut from 4-9kHz by a few dB with an equalizer and you'll be golden.
 
I also own the ATH-M50's and have for about 5-6 years.  They do not need an amp and are built like a tank.  The pleather will start to flake after 6-18months depending on how much you abuse them.  Lots of people say an amp will improve some intangible quality of the sound.  That is ********.  It makes it louder, no more no less.  You don't need an amp unless it's too quiet.  You may need an amp if you plug them into a ****ty phone or something in which case the SNR will make them sound like **** even with an amp.  I own the old version of the M50s.  But I would go with the M50x or the DT770 if I were you.  The M50x have flatter bass than the original M50s and a removable cable which is nice.  The DT770 will leak more sound than the M50x from what I've read, and I believe it is due to the velour pads.  However, the M50's have pleather pads which are uncomfortable after about 4ish hours, and they soak up sweat and harden over time.  Over time they will start to crack.  There is no solution to this problem without losing the excellent sound isolation.  They leak much more sound with velour pads, and usually need an EQ with those pads (shure 940 pads work, but leak sound and need ~5kHz cut by a few dB).  Stock M50's don't need to be EQ'd IMHO.  I don't know if the M50x pads solve that issue, I suspect they're better as they're different from what I've heard, but I doubt they've solved that problem.
 
That is what I can recommend based on my experience.  I'll also recommend the HD650 over the DT990 based on measurements I've seen.  Although the DT990 are basically on par after being EQ'd.  The AKG's are also on par (after EQ) from the measurements I've seen.  I can also vouch for the M50s.  Although they don't hold up to the DT990's as far as sound quality, they surpass it in portability and isolation.  It just depends on what is important to you.
 
Note that there are many MANY headphones I will not recommend based on measurements I've seen.  For instance, the DT880 have worse harmonic distortion based on measurements I've seen and reading between the lines of reviews I've read.  Even though their frequency response is flatter, I'd recommend the DT990's over them.  Frequency response can be fixed.  Distortion can't.  Also, there are so many high end headphones with terrible decay.  By that I mean there are certain places in the treble that ring like a bell.  That will make the cymbals etc all blur together.  That is not acceptable in a high end headphone, and since many people do not think about transient response that aspect goes overlooked.  I can vouch that the M50 and DT990 both have excellent transient response.  In general open back headphones have better transient response although not always.  The M50's are an exception to that rule.  I've also seen measurements that indicate the HD650 and Q701/K701 have excellent transient response as well.
 
Hope this helps you.  Sorry I wrote so much, but I hope my experience helps you.  If you have any questions I can help you with just ask.  Also, I'm a little drunk, I'll end this before it turns into a novel.
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 2:07 AM Post #8 of 19
I'd say $200-300.  For open back I'd aim for HD650s.  From what I've seen they have neutral frequency response, low distortion, and excellent decay.  Those usually go for more like $400 though and require a good amp.  In that same performance bracket you have the DT990 pro and Q701/K701 which both go for about $200.  Those all have low distortion and great decay, but need a little bit of an equalizer to be neutral.  The DT990 need to be cut by ~4-6dB from 4-9kHz.  The Q701 and K701 need the midrange to be cut a bit (around 1kHz if I remember correctly).  I believe the q and k versions are basically the same headphone.  Note that the consumer version of the DT990 are $100 more and from what I've read the band is looser (more comfortable) and come in a 600 ohm version which is marginally better.  It's up to you if you want to spend an extra 50% on marginally better comfort and marginally better sound that will require a more powerful amp.
 
Closed back is a little bit more difficult.  There's the M50x for $150, the DT770 for $200ish.  And not much else.  I know there's a few more but I don't have enough knowledge of them to recommend them (shure etc).
 
I own the DT990 pros and they sound great.  They need an amp to get to medium to high volume just like the HD650/Q701/K701 will need.  They are extremely comfortable and are built really well.  And they sound great.  If you look up reviews you'll read they are fatiguing.  That doesn't mean the treble is bad.  It is very clean and has excellent decay,  it is just too loud.  Cut from 4-9kHz by a few dB with an equalizer and you'll be golden.
 
I also own the ATH-M50's and have for about 5-6 years.  They do not need an amp and are built like a tank.  The pleather will start to flake after 6-18months depending on how much you abuse them.  Lots of people say an amp will improve some intangible quality of the sound.  That is ********.  It makes it louder, no more no less.  You don't need an amp unless it's too quiet.  You may need an amp if you plug them into a ****ty phone or something in which case the SNR will make them sound like **** even with an amp.  I own the old version of the M50s.  But I would go with the M50x or the DT770 if I were you.  The M50x have flatter bass than the original M50s and a removable cable which is nice.  The DT770 will leak more sound than the M50x from what I've read, and I believe it is due to the velour pads.  However, the M50's have pleather pads which are uncomfortable after about 4ish hours, and they soak up sweat and harden over time.  Over time they will start to crack.  There is no solution to this problem without losing the excellent sound isolation.  They leak much more sound with velour pads, and usually need an EQ with those pads (shure 940 pads work, but leak sound and need ~5kHz cut by a few dB).  Stock M50's don't need to be EQ'd IMHO.  I don't know if the M50x pads solve that issue, I suspect they're better as they're different from what I've heard, but I doubt they've solved that problem.
 
That is what I can recommend based on my experience.  I'll also recommend the HD650 over the DT990 based on measurements I've seen.  Although the DT990 are basically on par after being EQ'd.  The AKG's are also on par (after EQ) from the measurements I've seen.  I can also vouch for the M50s.  Although they don't hold up to the DT990's as far as sound quality, they surpass it in portability and isolation.  It just depends on what is important to you.
 
Note that there are many MANY headphones I will not recommend based on measurements I've seen.  For instance, the DT880 have worse harmonic distortion based on measurements I've seen and reading between the lines of reviews I've read.  Even though their frequency response is flatter, I'd recommend the DT990's over them.  Frequency response can be fixed.  Distortion can't.  Also, there are so many high end headphones with terrible decay.  By that I mean there are certain places in the treble that ring like a bell.  That will make the cymbals etc all blur together.  That is not acceptable in a high end headphone, and since many people do not think about transient response that aspect goes overlooked.  I can vouch that the M50 and DT990 both have excellent transient response.  In general open back headphones have better transient response although not always.  The M50's are an exception to that rule.  I've also seen measurements that indicate the HD650 and Q701/K701 have excellent transient response as well.
 
Hope this helps you.  Sorry I wrote so much, but I hope my experience helps you.  If you have any questions I can help you with just ask.  Also, I'm a little drunk, I'll end this before it turns into a novel.


What do u think about the k550?
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 1:55 PM Post #9 of 19
What do u think about the k550?


No experience with them. Look like they're built pretty well. Frequency response looks good from measurements, decay doesn't according to this >
index.php
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 3:30 PM Post #10 of 19
Sound and headphones, in my subjective opinion are purely objective in terms of what makes a "good" set. For me, I ultimately found the HD650's to be the ultimate open back for my tastes, even outdoing much more expensive models such as the 800, LCD's and others. The marketing lingo and terminology such as "reference class" and "audiophile sound" typically are designed to allure customers to items sporting higher price tags, which is why headphones ultimately are a objective topic, and should be examined closely by an individual before a decision is made. As mentioned in posts before mine, the physical build and appearance of headphones is not a direct correlation with price, and typically I have found that more expensive headphones tend to be more fragile and uncomfortable, albeit some exceptions such as the HD800. There are simply too many aspects to examine before judging what the general "sweet spot" for headphones, in relation to their quality vs audio fidelity. A common paradox I have found on this forum is that many individuals knock certain headphones, but if someone enjoys said pair, doesn't that ultimately make the headphone "good" in that person's perspective? Most forum users here use headphones to enjoy music, myself included, and what I can personally say is the pursuit of "perfect" sound is a sinkhole, and the objective of enjoying music should be remembered before trapping yourself in a loophole of purchasing expensive products which won't significantly outdo lesser sets depending on one's taste. 
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 3:38 PM Post #11 of 19
Okay so that was edifying.
Now I guess I sort of understand that I don't necessarily have to just throw more money at the problem in order to get what I'm looking for right now.
I guess down the road, I might buy a Senn HD800 type of open headphones but for the most part, I'm interested in headphones for on the road.
Also I don't have a ton of high quality lossless audio files to play anyhow.
 
So on that note, can someone please recommend me a good pair of headphones for traveling?
 
I'm looking for a good set of closed headphones for traveling (long international flights) and occasionally while working at home.
The criteria are:
1) be somewhat neutral headphones without too much artificial coloring
2) comfortable to wear for a long time
3) well constructed, does not feel or look cheap
4) detachable headphones
5) be under $400-$500 new (realistic retail price in US, such as Amazon) 
6) provides good isolation
7) closed headphones 
 
 
The kind of stuff I listen to:
1) electronic dance music
2) classical
3) audiobook
4) trendy pop music (hiphop, whatever)
 
 
The source most likely to be used:
1) iphone
2) Cowon player... maybe a DAC down the road.
 
 
In the past, I have tried:
1) ATH-M50x
2) premium IEMs (one dual driver UE, some single driver shures, etc)
 
 
So far I've done some reading and research and came to conclusion that I really like the K550's looks and what people say about its sound quality, but I don't like that it doesn't have detachable headphones.
K551 also fails in this regard and I hear K545 is a downgrade for the sound quality.
I like how the Grados look but they seem to be mostly open.
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 3:40 PM Post #12 of 19
Denon D2000's seem to fit your needs quite well, albeit no detachable cable, although I doubt that is an issue unless you want to buy expensive cables, which wouldn't really benefit the D2Ks. And if breaking the cables at the headphone cusp is a fear, I wouldn't denote that as a problem with the D2Ks as they are quite sturdy, you'd have to be quite rough on them to harm them. 
 
Dec 2, 2014 at 3:47 PM Post #13 of 19
Lots of info here,
 
http://www.head-fi.org/t/433318/shootout-113-portable-headphones-reviewed-alpha-design-labs-adl-h118-added-07-15-14
 
Just bought a pair of AUDIO TECHNICA ATH M50X based on the info there.
 

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