My last post reads more like a generic review, but the conclusion is that I think the Sundara is a pretty great value.
I'll also add with regards to my point about the Elex that maintenance should really be mentioned in the discussion about value. While the base price seems great, the pad replacements are at a high end price point. Unless I'm missing something, this should probably be considered more of a $1k headphone with this in mind.
Hifiman often has great performance to price ratios if focusing on sound quality per dollar. Their older gwar is often significantly discounted and still performs very competitively. Usually their issues relates to build quality, but I haven't had any personal issues. Some other companies do offer more premium-feeling gear at higher price points. You guys are right diminishing returns hit pretty quickly for sound quality. Finding the right personal sound signature is much more important. I would be pretty satisfied using just a Sundara for while.
Problem with that argument is that how good headphones sound is entirely subjective. Take the HD800 for example. They ran what... a grand and half? Super big and accurate sound stage, incredibly fast and accurate, and I absolutely abhor the way they sound. By my preferences, the treble hurts my ears and they are completely bass anemic and I wouldn't pay more than $200 for them.
Actually, it's not entirely subjective, far from it :
While there is ground for individual variations based on variations in people's anatomy and personal preferences (and Harman's target probably shouldn't be seen as the be-all, end-all target and may deserve criticism and variations around it), it's nowhere near enough to justify some of the awful FR curves we tend to see across all price points. There probably aren't a lot of human beings on this planet whose anatomy and personal preferences would, in a blind test, find them prefer this over better designed headphones : https://www.rtings.com/headphones/graph#1619/4012
Based on Harman's research the HD800 is largely perfectible indeed as far as as frequency response goes (too bad it's the most important thing). That applies to most headphones anyway, including most of the "audiophile" fads we've seen come and go over the years. It seems that with headphones it's less of a question of whether a pair sounds right or not, but rather of whether it sounds off or absolutely terrible.
Even today very few headphones manufacturers actually make use of that research of further it to help rationalise headphones design. We're still seeing nonsensical, god awful FR curves abound, frequently from supposedly "traditional" headphones companies, then justified by idiotic marketing mumbo-jumbo (HD820 comes to mind).
Actually, it's not entirely subjective, far from it :
While there is ground for individual variations based on variations in people's anatomy and personal preferences (and Harman's target probably shouldn't be seen as the be-all, end-all target and may deserve criticism and variations around it), it's nowhere near enough to justify some of the awful FR curves we tend to see across all price points. There probably aren't a lot of human beings on this planet whose anatomy and personal preferences would, in a blind test, find them prefer this over better designed headphones : https://www.rtings.com/headphones/graph#1619/4012
Based on Harman's research the HD800 is largely perfectible indeed as far as as frequency response goes (too bad it's the most important thing). That applies to most headphones anyway, including most of the "audiophile" fads we've seen come and go over the years. It seems that with headphones it's less of a question of whether a pair sounds right or not, but rather of whether it sounds off or absolutely terrible.
Even today very few headphones manufacturers actually make use of that research of further it to help rationalise headphones design. We're still seeing nonsensical, god awful FR curves abound, frequently from supposedly "traditional" headphones companies, then justified by idiotic marketing mumbo-jumbo (HD820 comes to mind).
Harman curve does not remove the subjectivity as it is partially just market research. Many cringe to the idea of target curve being based even partially to something what punch of amateurs find preferable. It's like doing a research on music and concluding perfect music should be mix of despacito and baby shark because according to youtube views that is what most people find preferable.
Actually, it's not entirely subjective, far from it :
While there is ground for individual variations based on variations in people's anatomy and personal preferences (and Harman's target probably shouldn't be seen as the be-all, end-all target and may deserve criticism and variations around it), it's nowhere near enough to justify some of the awful FR curves we tend to see across all price points. There probably aren't a lot of human beings on this planet whose anatomy and personal preferences would, in a blind test, find them prefer this over better designed headphones : https://www.rtings.com/headphones/graph#1619/4012
Based on Harman's research the HD800 is largely perfectible indeed as far as as frequency response goes (too bad it's the most important thing). That applies to most headphones anyway, including most of the "audiophile" fads we've seen come and go over the years. It seems that with headphones it's less of a question of whether a pair sounds right or not, but rather of whether it sounds off or absolutely terrible.
Even today very few headphones manufacturers actually make use of that research of further it to help rationalise headphones design. We're still seeing nonsensical, god awful FR curves abound, frequently from supposedly "traditional" headphones companies, then justified by idiotic marketing mumbo-jumbo (HD820 comes to mind).
Frequently response graphs are not always the tale of a competent headphone. People shouldn’t even concern themselves with graphs. People need to slowly get a system together which they feel is their subjective ideas of listenable. (I know your saying the Harman is the subjective idea of listenable both for the public and audiophiles).
Obviously graphs will show at times and confirm issues in places. Like if there is a standout character that seems to be ruining the listening experience it can be confirmed by the graph as existing for sure.
Let’s also not forget about multitudes of headphone attributes which will not even show up in a FR graph. Obviously there is a giant world of different sounding headphones. Not one is perfect. In my experience there is a wide range of personalities too which are the headphones character. That character can vary far or close to what a Harman Curve would be. There is very little right or wrong to a point. Obviously things like cohesive properties and completeness are important but many flagships actually have ideas that could be looked at as artifacts.
Imagine artifacts making a headphone better? Now how does that test? It shows up as a very off curve in relation to the Harman Curve. But.....these ideas are someone’s way of trying to move headphones into a new sound. Take the Sony MDR-Z1R. Instead of trying to give each instrument it’s own space they added a style of room response (an artifact) which shows up as something different in an FR graph.
The speakers in a room give off waves (sounds bouncing inside) then going backwards and to the side, consequently adding a bass hump to the listener as they come back from the side and back walls of the room. This theory has been measured and proven as true. So adding this personality is a departure from the normal Harman Curve.
I only write this due to owning some headphones with really strange measurements.
And in fact every headphone has it’s own good and bad points. Some headphones need more power to climb out of their issues. Basically whole systems are what you listen to, not a graph and there is not a single headphone response that is heard all over the world by the same headphone. Basically that headphone represents the sound of the entire system that’s being used. So yes, if all the equipment was the same the headphone may sound the same.
So graphs only mean so much.
What were we taking about again?
Oh? Price to performance talk. Well 10 years ago you could count the flagships almost on one hand. The AKG K1000 or the Sony R-10 in 1989......the HD800 in 2009 was an insane price!.........then.........so in the last few years there has been an introduction of all kinds of expensive headphones. Remember that it used to be $600-$1000 was TOTL. Though the R-10 was $2500 in 1989 which is slightly over 5K in today’s money. The AKG K-1000 was $1000 in 1989....if I remember right. But generally headphones didn’t cost what the TOTL costs today. And even counting inflation in it goes way way over into the landscape we see now.
I think the reason price to performance is not critical and not talked about is due to there being bigger fish to fry. People are simply more concerned about finding THE headphone and don’t want to keep chasing the imaginary unicorn.
I don't think anyone has ever said hd820 has a reference tuning. It might be enjoyable to some and there is nothing wrong with that. Many "audiophiles" enjoy something like Fostex TH900 but they know better than to proclaim it has tuning by which all headphones should be judged. Same goes for hd800. There is a clear consensus that hd800 lacks subbass, has rolled of upper midrange and peaky treble. It has been criticized for those problems by pretty much every notable reviewer since forever. BUT thay does not mean it's a bad headphone. It is flawed but it has other qualities that partially compensate for it's problems. If those qualities are not important to someone, fine. Go buy AKG K371 or something.
What many people (me included) find problematic with the harman curve is the emphasis on bass and treble. Reference curve that suggest Audeze lcd-2c needs allmost 5db bassboost and that Focal clear does not have enough treble is bit too much to swallow.
Anyway I'm not steering this any further off topic. "What is neutral" topic is beating a dead horse at this point. There are threads more suited for this debate.
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