[kelly]

What exactly makes someone qualified to express an opinion, Mark? That they agree with you? That they agree with you and play a genre of music you like?

What are you qualifications to disqualify theirs?

 

[markl]

OK, the "qualified" part was a cheap shot and irrelevant to the core of what I was saying. That said, would you let Snoop Dog mow your lawn let alone tell you what to think? Not me.

But that's not the real point I was making.

markl

 

[kelly]

Mark, I've heard some Snoop Dogg stuff I like but haven't heard much of his stuff. I bet you I've heard more Snoop stuff than you have. Now, *I* don't feel qualified to summarize his beliefs and views or the lyrical content of all his albums. If I don't feel qualified, how could you? Do you really own all his albums and have examined them? I bet you if I sat down and really tried to understand all of his songs, I'd find both things I agree with and things I don't. I may take this project on soon. Care to join me?

The people who mow my lawn don't speak english and can't vote, for what it's worth. I don't think they're supposed to be here.

 

[markl]

No, I'm no Snoop Dog "expert". Nor am I a rap music "expert". I fully admit that that my familiarity with the genre comes almost entirely from MTV, cause that's the only place I'm exposed to that kind of music. Maybe, way on the periphery of the rap genre where no one is really looking, there exists a few scattered bastions of "good" rap with lyrics that I *could* stand behind. However, I am so turned off by what I do know of rap, I have little incentive to try to hunt it down.

If you look to music to get your political ideas God help you. At best, music can help support what you *already* think.

What do I think is good "socially conscious" music? Listen to Randy Newman. He's wickedly evil and mocks the social class to which he belongs with eloquence, intensity and humor. He's a brilliant satirist in my book. But of course I'm already "down" with what he's saying.

markl

 

[kelly]

Mark

I'm not sure we're arguing the same topics. I don't tend to look for new political bandwagons to ride in the lyrics of music. The best we could hope for there is that some band might sing about a topic so obscure that it'd increase my awareness of it. I struggle to recall any of those. So for me, it's "influencial effectiveness" isn't what I'm interested in.

I'm just saying maybe a song about social policy is more interesting to listen to than "Oops I did it again", even if I don't agree with the songwriter's view on social policy.

It likely doesn't surprise you that I'm a big fan of satire. I wonder, though, if you'd be open minded enough to find the satire interesting in the new Eminem album (rap) or any given Type O Negative album (goth metal).

 

[markl]

OK, I see what you're saying now. And yes, in that sense, I agree that something with a little thought behind it is preferable to empty pop calories.

I admit to a soft spot for Eminem

. He always makes me laugh. Besides he blasts Moby on his new song, so he can't be all bad !

I was at the gym working out and listening to God knows what station when they played some extended mix version of the new song (title?) which literally breaks into a 2-3 minute riff on the line "Nobody listens to techno" with mocking techno beats behind it. I really really enjoyed that. However, I'm not sure Eminem is worth my $17.

There is a compilation of Dr. Dre produced songs that only came out in Brittain that's on my "to buy" list. You can't deny the genius of Dre as a producer, and I certainly wouldn't.

markl

 

[kelly]

The new Eminem is $12.99 at Tower right now and includes a bonus DVD. I haven't bought it yet but managed to er uh... umm, audition it. (Yo ho, yo ho... nevermind.) Anyway, I dig it. I think the guy is a real musician and if he begins to flounder as a rap artist I imagine he could easily make a living doing producing. The production values on the new album are outstanding.

 

[markl]

Somewhat OT: I bought Missy Ellit's "Miss E-- So Addictive" on DVD-A thinking that with all the money she and her producer have the sound on this alone would bend my brain. Well let me tell you, in all its DVD-A "splendor" this was by far the WORST sounding disc I've EVER bought. I was absolutely aghast at how poorly this was recorded. Totally stunned. I thought that if nothing else, rap music is a good place to go to hear the best of modern production. Not necessarily so.

You'll forgive me if I'm a little skeptical about the sound quality of Eminems CD.

markl

 

[ChenaynayC]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Somewhat OT: I bought Missy Ellit's "Miss E-- So Addictive" on DVD-A thinking that with all the money she and her producer have the sound on this alone would bend my brain. Well let me tell you, in all its DVD-A "splendor" this was by far the WORST sounding disc I've EVER bought. I was absolutely aghast at how poorly this was recorded. Totally stunned. I thought that if nothing else, rap music is a good place to go to hear the best of modern production. Not necessarily so. You'll forgive me if I'm a little skeptical about the sound quality of Eminems CD. markl

I'm surprised by that. I have the Miss E CD and think it's quite well produced. Of course that's to my ears. Others mileage may vary. I don't do DVDs. As far as Eminem - his producer is Dr. Dre. It will be well produced, no doubt. I'm not sure there would be an Eminem without Dr. Dre. I think there's a synergy between Dre's bass, synthesizers (I call 'em whiny) and the tone of Mr. Mather's voice that makes you hear him.

And, I wouldn't necessarily look to rap for great producing. Some of it sucks. I've been enjoying De La Souls Bionic lately. It's well produced to my ears.

 

[dhwilkin]

Quote:

markl said... You'll forgive me if I'm a little skeptical about the sound quality of Eminems CD.

I'm listening to his first album, The Slim Shady LP, right now. I'll vouch for it as having solid sound quality. Might not be your next reference recording, but I've heard much, much worse.

 

[kerelybonto]

Jesu Christo, we're all Eminem fans now? I hate his voice. Which is pretty important in the kind of music he makes.

Back to the politics-and-music thing. markl summed up my thoughts well when he wrote, "If you look to music to get your political ideas God help you." I find it almost insulting when musicians incorporate politics into their music, probably because I don't think a medium that's so unintellectual can inspire any real thought. phidauex, you bring up the point that a "song can describe the feelings, the emotion and the drive behind a belief" -- but, to me, that's almost a problem. Maybe that says something about me. ...

Anyway, perhaps I'm so easily annoyed because I really don't like lyrics anyway -- at least for what they mean. As I said earlier, I pretty much consider only how the singer's voice sounds with the music, not what's being said. My favorite Doors song is "Peace Frog," but that's because it's a great song, not because of what it's talking about. kelly, you said that it's better to have lyrics that mean something than nothing, but to me, that's simply not true. I like Beck's lyrics as much as anyone's.

Then again ... I do listen to lyrics in music where they're extremely prominent and have to be listened to to make the song worthwhile -- like Dylan, for instance. I also sometimes find myself listening to the lyrics of Pink Floyd, for some reason -- I'm not sure where the line really is. ...

kerelybonto

 

[Flumpus]

Quote:

I find it almost insulting when musicians incorporate politics into their music, probably because I don't think a medium that's so unintellectual can inspire any real thought.

Um, no offense, but that's probably one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen... Maybe I'm just reading that wrong, but does anyone else think that statement is just flat out wrong?

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl No, I'm no Snoop Dog "expert". Nor am I a rap music "expert". I fully admit that that my familiarity with the genre comes almost entirely from MTV, cause that's the only place I'm exposed to that kind of music. Maybe, way on the periphery of the rap genre where no one is really looking, there exists a few scattered bastions of "good" rap with lyrics that I *could* stand behind. However, I am so turned off by what I do know of rap, I have little incentive to try to hunt it down.

Maybe, just maybe, you've got it backwards? Maybe by only getting your "rap" from MTV, you're only seeing one small segment of the hip-hop world, the "bastion" of commercialized, heavily-promoted, over-saturated junk?

Quote:

Originally posted by kerelybonto I find it almost insulting when musicians incorporate politics into their music, probably because I don't think a medium that's so unintellectual can inspire any real thought.

Um... "a medium that's so unintellectual"??? Music? Rap? What medium is that? kerelybonto, that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Especially since you said, immediately after, that you don't really like lyrics anyway

What's even more ironic is that most forms of music originated specifically to express thoughts, ideas, etc.

 

[phidauex]

Yeah, i've got to jump on that comment too. "Unintellectual medium" dear god, what do you think music IS? Music is an expression of the deepest feelings, beliefs and desires of the musician. Good music comes from deep inside, and deep down in yourself, your emotional sides, and intellectual sides merge. Down in our souls (term used metaphorically), we make intellectual decisions based on some emotional feelings, and we make emotional decisions based on our intellect. Its part of what it means to be human. We are the biological fusion of computer accurate processing, and and utterly adaptable animal instinct and chaotic intuition. Music isn't music unless it has a root in the intellectual, as well as the emotional. Music doesn't need lyrics. Saint Saens didn't need lyrics to Danse Macabre, but that doesn't mean he didn't have a plan in mind for your listening experience, that doesn't mean he doesn't have something he's communicating to you.

I dig what kelly was saying about liking to hear viewpoints in music, even if they aren't his own, because it shows that the music has substance. Music that fills you with emotion, and opens your mind to new perspectives and ideas, is to me, a beautiful expression of the human experience. Music is the soundtrack to our lives, not just the 'I'm going to relax to some music' parts of our lives, but also our angry times, and our sad times, and our happy times, and our driven times, and our triumphant times. I may not agree with someone who sings about their particular viewpoint, but I appreciate that they are letting me know, in the most soulful way, how they see the world. If I ignored that, I would be strapping the blinders onto my eyes.

I'm not black, or from africa, but I listen to a lot of reggae. I love listening to the hopefullness of Bob Marley, and the passion of Sizzla. When they sing about the land they call home, and the people they call brothers, it makes me happy. I'm not from the ghetto, but I like hearing about the difficulties when you are living as a slave to city streets. It helps me keep my mind open, and to understand people around me. Music is part of how I remain compassionate toward the world. Every culture has music, and listening to that music can let you know not just the factual data about their culture, but lets you know the soul behind it, the feeling, their interpretation of the human experience. Its like a direct mental connection to their minds and emotions. Its hard to be fearful of and threatened by another culture, when you make an effort to understand them.

Anyway, i'm waxing philisophical, and i've got to get to bed.

Peace,
phidauex

 

[kerelybonto]

Quote:

Music is an expression of the deepest feelings, beliefs and desires ...

And that's exactly why I think music DOES NOT make a good medium for political issues. Sorry, but I prefer to form opinions based on more objective things, not the touchy-feely-ness of things like music, anedotes, and pictures. I can understand why you guys dislike what I said, but to call music 'intellectual' is even more ridiculous. That statement has nothing to do with the intelligence of musicians or their music, but there's a reason lyrics are lyrics (i.e., deriving from the adjective meaning "expressing direct usually intense personal emotion," says Merriam-Webster) and not treatises.

Now, of course I like music -- that's obvious from my presence here -- and all it's accompanying emotion. But I don't think it's anything to affect how I think. If you do, you must be the kind of people they write national anthems for.

kerelybonto