[Arjisme]

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I was referring to that article disputing binaural beats with a bunch of half-baked arguments, not just "question the supposed mechanism". If you read that article carefully you'll note how he attacks binaural beats from multiple directions like someone trying to lift up food with four chopsticks, he does not stick to a single argument and try to pierce the heart of the matter.

I did read that article carefully actually and I did not think he was disputing in it that binaural beats have an effect on people.  Maybe you could cite specific examples of what you object to?  I thought he had a very balanced, objective look at them and drew no hard conclusions.
 

People who randomly say "binaural beats are a sham" or "binaural beats doesn't exist" claim it isn't real. It is real because it is, backed by a lot of data.

Yes, but in this thread very few have said they are a sham and your responses haven't appeared to be directed at those individuals.  I understand you think the article in question was making this claim (which I disagree it does).  Also, it is still not clear what you mean by "it is real," which is what I originally asked for clarification on.
 

 

[haloxt]

What do you think the people I directed my responses to were talking about then?
 
If you didn't know, this is the stupid article http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4147
 
I'm not even going to justify that stupid article with any serious explanations, I'll just quote the most dumb arguments as he tries to fling poo on the entirety of binaural beats. If you still think I'm wrong, it doesn't bother me.
 
 
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Let's point our skeptical eye at the science of binaural beats, and especially at some of the claims made for them.

 
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But the question is: Does it have a special effect on the brain? A lot of people think so. The basic claim being made for binaural beats is "resonant entrainment".

 
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So to summarize their claim, they're saying that entrainment means that a binaural beat will cause your brain's electroencephalogram to match the pattern of the phantom beat. Well, if it did, entrainment certainly doesn't apply and would not be part of the equation, so we can scratch that off the list.

 
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Waking relaxation with eyes closed often produces a pattern from 8 to 12 Hz, which is called an alpha pattern. There are only a few characterized patterns, and pretty general descriptions of what kinds of activities go with them. The claim made by the binaural beat sellers depends on much more granular and specific matches. For example, the claim that a binaural beat with a frequency of X produces the same effect in your brain as Vicodin is wholly implausible. Such claims presume that we know the exact frequency of the electroencephalogram in each of these desired conditions, and the fact is that brain waves don't work that way. It is wholly and absolutely implausible to say that desired brain condition X will occur if we get your EEG to read exactly X Hz.

 
 
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Not only that, binaural beats presume that brain waves work in the opposite way that they do. Certain brain states produce certain brain waves; brain waves don't produce brain states. You just don't turn a dial to 6.5 Hz and induce instant happiness.
 
And so, while the claimed science behind binaural beats is unfounded, this doesn't mean that the effect isn't real and simply unexplained. Maybe you can listen to a certain binaural beat and induce a desired state, but for reasons we don't yet understand. So let's take a look at the research, and see if such an effect has actually been observed.

 
Ignoring thousands of studies, pinpointing dumb ones, etc etc. Finally to piss on the grave of science it says.
 
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So, in summary, binaural beats certainly do not work the way the sellers claim, but there's no reason to think they're any less effective than any other music track you might listen to that effects you in a way you like. If they make you sleepy (like they all do for me), use them to go to sleep. If they relax you or get you amped, use them for that. But don't expect them to be any more effective than regular music. If someone you know claims that they are, put them to the test, and bust the myth.

 

[Arjisme]

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Ignoring thousands of studies, pinpointing dumb ones, etc etc.
 

So you are saying there are thousands of studies that have proven that inducing certain frequencies in brain waves cause specific feelings/responses in test subjects?  Further, they have proven it isn't the other way around -- i.e. inducing specific feelings/responses in test subjects cause certain brain wave frequencies?
 
And, again, you are saying there are thousands of peer-reviewed studies that prove that entrainment is the mechanism that binaural beats use to induce specific brain wave frequencies in humans?  If so, that's interesting and It'd be cool to see at least a few of these studies to learn more.  Would you have any links to a few?
 
Lastly, the article, as your own selected excerpts demonstrate, only disputes the mechanism typically claimed for why binaural beats cause an effect in humans.  It does not deny that they do have an actual affect on people.

 

[haloxt]

Since you asked so nicely I'll explain. The phenomena of binaural beats is the entrainment of someone's general brain waves to the difference between two beats. The phenomena is not about inducing specific states of mind that have been arbitrarily associated with random brainwave numbers. When there are two beats the brain has a tendency to entrain to a frequency that is the difference between the two, assuming the difference is not outside of typical brainwave frequencies and under good conditions.
 
If you read my prior posts I have said that there are certain emotions or states of mind observed to be associated with particular dominant brainwave frequencies, and that it is not accurate to say you can cause "specific feelings/responses" solely by trying to entraining someone's brainwaves to a specific frequency. There are too many variables to 100% predict what happens to someone when listening to those binaural cd's you might see especially since they are interweaved with all sorts of other things, some use light as well. Not to mention the fact that the observed states of mind correlated to a dominant brainwave frequency is just a general rule of thumb, and has no bearing on the validity of the phenomena of binaural beats which I repeat again is about the brain's tendency to entrain to the difference between two beats.
 
In my opinion it is crude and similar to self-hypnosis where the final result depends on you instead of another person hypnotizing you, useful for scientific research, but I really don't advise people use it for something like "relaxation" or "meditation" or "getting high". Just go to the citations section of the wikipedia article, click around, you will find all sorts of scientific experiments about binaural beats.
 
Lastly, the article we're talking about actually tries to whitewash binaural beats as not any more able to alter the mind than normal music.
 
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But don't expect them to be any more effective than regular music.

 

[Technicolour]

I know someone who tried iDoser. Not surprisingly it didn't work. Go figure.

 

[peli_kan]

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I didn't say anything about the measurements, or about the validity of binaural beats at all.

However, you did you claim that you could prove this phenomena is real with an incredibly simple observation. You can make an EEG machine respond to all sorts of things, blinking lights, movement, thought, TONS of things have an effect. Hell, you can hook a damn EEG machine to a plant and get interesting results.

So, if by phenomena, you mean that when you do something, you get results on and EEG, then yes. This is confirmed.

However, if you mean that binaural beats can be used to reprogram the brain and produced altered states because an EEG changes when you listen to them, you are making the single most ignorant attempt at science I have ever seen on this board, which is pretty monumental considering the things people say in this forum.

Maybe they do produce an altered state? I'm not debating that. But to say science is dead after proposing a 100% irrelevant "scientific" experiment is just silly. Unless your experiment was to prove that you can see beats on an EEG, which nobody here seems to be debating.

Owned.  Talk about flying blind into a brick wall of logic.