[kydsid]

I have a couple questions for the people who deem it unethical to waste a companies time or to download music.


Is it wrong to demo a product at more than one store? Let us assume you have demoed (sp?) the product already but it is above your personal buy it now level. (I never buy anything that costs more than $500 without thinking about it for several days). Say later I demo it again in another shop. Does it matter in shop two if I ask to demo or if it is offered for demo? I had a good experience at shop 1 and now decide to buy the item from shop 1. Was in wrong to demo the item again? Was it only wrong if I asked to demo the item? Why? To me this is the process of shopping and not unethical even if I ask.


Second: An artist and the label only receive payment upon the first sale of a cd/record. I go to a used cd store that happens to have a 7 day trial period. I buy a cd. No money will ever go to the artist or label. I take it back 6 days later for a full refund. I basically enjoyed/hated the artists intellectual property without compensation to the artist. Ultimately though I was not satisfied with the cost to value of the cd and returned it. Was that unethical?

 

[Skylab]

Let me ask you the following question: is breaking the law unethical?

 

[Sherwood]

1st: The assertion made here was that demoing a product without the intention of buying it from whomever you are demoing it is unethical, provided the person giving you the demo believes you might buy it. In the situation you provided it seemed like you were indeed shopping, and might have bought it from either shop. If you had no intention to buy it from one of the shops, then yeah, that would have been unethical.

2nd: Used CD sales are a thorny enough ethical issue without your complicated return scheme. What you are looking for here is for me to say "Used CD sales are unethical", which is an easily defeated argument, or for me to say "used CD sales are perfectly ethical", in which case you would argue that the artist sees no more revenue from used CDs than from piracy, so if one is ethical the other must be. It is, however, not nearly that simple.

 

[Skylab]

Buying a used CD, listening to it, and returning it, *without* ripping it/copying it, is legal. I don't consider it unethical. If you borrow it and rip or copy it, it's illegal, and unethical.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kydsid /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have a couple questions for the people who deem it unethical to waste a companies time or to download music. Is it wrong to demo a product at more than one store? Let us assume you have demoed (sp?) the product already but it is above your personal buy it now level. (I never buy anything that costs more than $500 without thinking about it for several days). Say later I demo it again in another shop. Does it matter in shop two if I ask to demo or if it is offered for demo? I had a good experience at shop 1 and now decide to buy the item from shop 1. Was in wrong to demo the item again? Was it only wrong if I asked to demo the item? Why? To me this is the process of shopping and not unethical even if I ask. Second: An artist and the label only receive payment upon the first sale of a cd/record. I go to a used cd store that happens to have a 7 day trial period. I buy a cd. No money will ever go to the artist or label. I take it back 6 days later for a full refund. I basically enjoyed/hated the artists intellectual property without compensation to the artist. Ultimately though I was not satisfied with the cost to value of the cd and returned it. Was that unethical?

A used CD store with a seven day trial period???

Third: My dragon is picky about what it eats. The local dwarves sell all kinds of captured fairies. I take my dragon to one of their caves. He nibbles on an elf, but only eats the leg. We decide to leave. We float down the Chocolate River to the next dwarven enclave. My dragon bites the head off of a gnome. My dragon is no longer hungry, so we go back home. Was this unethical? None of my +5 swords would have ever gone directly to the Dark Lord Sauron, so it's not like I'm taking anything away from him. He still gets to live in that fancy pad in Mordor with all his Chaotic Evil industry hacks.

 

[kydsid]

Please excuse the almost baiting of my previous post. As Sherwood pointed out the plausibility. To Skylab nothing of what I posted was illegal.

Yes used CD's are perfectly legal and while the issue of downloads have not been fully addressed in a technical aspect. Let us assume that someone offering a download on bit torrent deleted the file after first download. Would that be different from giving away a used cd? I don't think so. As is many things in life this whole idea in both topics within this thread is gray.

It isn't black and white, legal or illegal, only morally and ethically challenged by ones own assertions and values.


As for a used record shop with a return policy. You bet. A favorite shop of mine outside DC has just a policy and I was a profuse fan because of that and bought more new CDs as a result also.


My thesis for both ideas is that demo'ing gear, downloading etc. has a place in any free marketplace and given time will increase sales and profits. And that the assertion that only people who will buy an item are allowed to demo the gear unrealistic. In fact if you have a peice of gear in your showroom and choose who to demo it too based on the argument this or that person will not buy anything you might end up in a lawsuit.


I posit this: How many of us would gladly pay $2 more for a CD if it included a code to download the entire album in whatever format and whatever bit rate we chose?

 

[Skylab]

I'm sorry but that just isn't correct.

The way the law works, nothing is ever guaranteed to be legal. In this country it is only possible to break laws that exist. Any given thing is only "legal" to the extent that it does not break any existing laws.

As such, many actions are in a grey area, yes, and as such they end up in court.

But anyone who file shares copyrighted material on bittorrent is breaking the existing law - this has been upheld, and violators have been sued and owed and paid large sums of money. You can try to rationalize it any way you want, but it is illegal, and you can be in deep trouble for doing it.

If you buy a CD, rip/copy it, keep the copy, and sell the original, you have also broken copyright law. This is also clear - NOT gray.

To say anything else is simply delusional.

Selling a CD you bought and DID NOT keep a copy of has been upheld in court an not being illegal.

You can legally borrow CDs from your public library. But if you rip/copy them before returning them, you have also broken the law.

This stuff really isn't that hard to understand.

Now, as for ETHICS, that is another matter. I break the law almost every day by violating the speed limit. Most people do. We don't think that's unethical. But if you are speeding, and you hit someone, and you flee the scene, most normal people would consider that unethical.

Yes, I consider violating the copyrights of artists to be unethical. And I wish more people did as well.

 

[demoNMaCHiN3]

People who torrent and download music illegally would actually go out and purchase the music if it wasn't for the fact that a lot of music today is horrible. THAT is why the music industry is in the **** state it's in today, not because of people torrenting/downloading music.

You can't go out and demo music in stores anymore. I personally download music and if I find myself enjoying the album enough, I'll go out and purchase the album. If anything, music downloading only increases a consumer's awareness of and interest in music.

 

[Skylab]

That was an interesting post - we need to dissect it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoNMaCHiN3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif People who torrent and download music illegally would actually go out and purchase the music if it wasn't for the fact that a lot of music today is horrible.

That is a rationalization - "I shot the guy because he was a lowlife scum". Sorry, it's still illegal.


Quote:

Originally Posted by demoNMaCHiN3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif THAT is why the music industry is in the **** state it's in today, not because of people torrenting/downloading music.

THIS I agree with, but it doesn;t help you with the above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoNMaCHiN3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can't go out and demo music in stores anymore. I personally download music and if I find myself enjoying the album enough, I'll go out and purchase the album. If anything, music downloading only increases a consumer's awareness of and interest in music.

I ALSO agree with this, but it STILL doesn't make the above any more legal, sorry.

 

[demoNMaCHiN3]

Quote:

this has been upheld, and violators have been sued and owed and paid large sums of money. You can try to rationalize it any way you want, but it is illegal, and you can be in deep trouble for doing it.

Actually, a large amount of people have been sued (~35,000) but no one has had to pay anything. Also, the RIAA has announced it will stop suing individuals: RIAA to Stop Suing Music Fans, Cut Them Off Instead | Epicenter from Wired.com

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoNMaCHiN3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, a large amount of people have been sued (~35,000) but very few have actually had to pay anything. Also, the RIAA has announced it will stop going after individuals: RIAA to Stop Suing Music Fans, Cut Them Off Instead | Epicenter from Wired.com

This was purely a business decision, however, if you read the article - it in no way changes that the behavior is illegal. It does however appear to change the risk profile of the behavior somewhat.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm sorry but that just isn't correct. The way the law works, nothing is ever guaranteed to be legal. In this country it is only possible to break laws that exist. Any given thing is only "legal" to the extent that it does not break any existing laws. As such, many actions are in a grey area, yes, and as such they end up in court. But anyone who file shares copyrighted material on bittorrent is breaking the existing law - this has been upheld, and violators have been sued and owed and paid large sums of money. You can try to rationalize it any way you want, but it is illegal, and you can be in deep trouble for doing it. If you buy a CD, rip/copy it, keep the copy, and sell the original, you have also broken copyright law. This is also clear - NOT gray. To say anything else is simply delusional. Selling a CD you bought and DID NOT keep a copy of has been upheld in court an not being illegal. You can legally borrow CDs from your public library. But if you rip/copy them before returning them, you have also broken the law. This stuff really isn't that hard to understand. Now, as for ETHICS, that is another matter. I break the law almost every day by violating the speed limit. Most people do. We don't think that's unethical. But if you are speeding, and you hit someone, and you flee the scene, most normal people would consider that unethical. Yes, I consider violating the copyrights of artists to be unethical. And I wish more people did as well.

I was with you 100% until you talked about breaking the speed limit. I frankly don't see the difference between this and downloading files illegally; in fact, if anything, breaking the speed limit is far worse. As big a bowlful of suck as stealing files is, nobody's getting killed.

It all boils down to people doing things that they know aren't right because it's easier for them that way. "I don't want to pay for music, I'd rather get it for free." "I don't want to be late for dinner, I'd rather go 90 mph."

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was with you 100% until you talked about breaking the speed limit. I frankly don't see the difference between this and downloading files illegally; in fact, if anything, breaking the speed limit is far worse. As big a bowlful of suck as stealing files is, nobody's getting killed. It all boils down to people doing things that they know aren't right because it's easier for them that way. "I don't want to pay for music, I'd rather get it for free." "I don't want to be late for dinner, I'd rather go 90 mph."

Fair enough - good point.

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by demoNMaCHiN3 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can't go out and demo music in stores anymore.

You can where I live. There's listening stations that, if anything, make it much easier to listen than in the past.

 

[Skylab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by earwicker7 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You can where I live. There's listening stations that, if anything, make it much easier to listen than in the past.

Same here - at Borders, at FYE, and at Best Buy.