[10068]

original post invalid. thanks for the help

 

[recstar24]

With certain tube types, NOS simply are better sound quality, whereas with other tube types its not as apparent. My experience with tubes has been with the 12ax7 family. The new 12ax7's like sovtek and electroharmonix simply can't compare to the harmonic richness and musicality of NOS 5751's like sylvania and raytheon.

 

[cpw]

IME, it really depends on the amp.
Some really take on the tubes character where others don't seem to care much at all.
In my Stealth, the output (driver) tubes don't seem to chg much whereas the input tube can turn it into several different amps based on which one is in at any given moment.
My power amp can take two totally different tubes which sound quite different.
Old isn't always better; I paid alot for some NOS tubes that didn't help a bit.
Fun to experiment though.
CPW

 

[Yada]

I've listened to perhaps 50 - 75 different model/manufacturer combinations from about a dozen different tube manufacturers (GE, Tong Sol, RCA, Philips, Siemens, Sylvania, Amperex, Mullard, Sovtek, Electro Harmonix, Svetlana, etc) across 10 or so different tube types (12AX7, 12AT7, 12AU7, 6DJ8/6922/7308, 5687, 6L6, 6550, etc). Some have been brand new current models and other have been used old style tubes or unused NOS (back to the 1950s or so). I've tried these tubes in over 20 different amps, preamps, tuners, and CD players and listened as critically as possible.

It's hard to compare tubes because you have to power up, listen, power down, cool off, change tubes and then start the power up/listen cycle again. It's not exactly instantaneous A-B comparisons; you can form impressions, but it's not easy to be precise.

My overall impression is that for any given set of equipment and tubes there is no clear answer as to what will sound better between current model tubes and older tubes. In some cases new tubes have sounded better, but probably over half the time NOS have sounded better. This might simply be that over half the tubes I've heard have been NOS, or it might be my combination of equipment and tubes, or it might just be my preference. (Although I think a lot tube enthusiasts would tell you that for various reasons the Golden Age of tube manufacturing might have occurred somewhere in the 1940s, 50s, or 60s and that for all our modern technology we generally don't make new tubes that sound as good as we did in the old days.)

Long story short, it's an on-going trial and error experiment. One thing that can shorten the process is if you find someone with similar equipment who expresses their impressions clearly you can piggy back on their findings once you learn to trust or at least calibrate their findings. Even then, and even based on your own findings, a number of other variables can impact the results - such as unit to unit variation among tubes (a calibrated tube tester can minimize this issue). Also, some tubes in some circuits need to be installed in matched pairs, quads, etc. and the amp may need to be re-biased when tubes are changed. All of these things will impact the sound.

Another point, although it's slightly off topic, is that the differences are somewhat subtle in most cases. The most reliable, trusted, service oriented tube seller I have found is Jim McShane (not to say there aren't other very good tube sellers, but Jim is my reference standard). Anyway, after characterizing the qualitative differences between a couple of tubes I asked Jim how big those differences might be quantitatively. His reply was that if you took 50 people off the street, 45 of them wouldn't hear any difference. I think it's safe to say that audiophiles are in the other 10% if not the 1% or .001% of the population and we enjoy discriminating at farily subtle levels. The only point here is that you can spend a lot time, money, and energy so just know ahead of time that this is much more like the results you get from measuring with a micrometer than chopping with an axe.

Back to the original "question" I would never place a bet on what would sound better between new and old tubes in any given piece of equipment unless I'd previously done some listening or I had reliable input from another user. New or NOS by itself isn't definitive in my experience.

It's called tube rolling, but it's close to rolling the dice. (That's probably a bad analogy; the first time is close to a dice roll, but I believe that once you hear a combination of tubes and equipment you can then try others and then go back to the first combination and expect substantially similar results, ie after a round of testing it's a lot more predictable than dice.)

 

[KZEE]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sduibek I have gone back to using the stock tubes that came with my Woo Audio 3... and they sound worlds better than some NOS tubes a friend sent me with the amp. In every way. Detail, texture, SPEED, PRaT, musicality, warmth, soundstage. Let's see.... hmmm... What other words can I think of There is literally NOTHING I prefered about the old tubes compared to these "inferior" ( ) ones. Did I just get unlucky and have bum pairs of NOS's? Or what? I don't even care why at this point. I'm just happy enjoying my music. No more tweaking for me for a while. Eat your heart out, NOS-tube lovers

What brand of NOS tubes did your friend send you? The better sounding NOS 7308/6922/6dj8 tubes are going for a pretty penny these days, so unless your friend is a really good friend, the tubes he sent you probably aren't in the upper tier of good sounding NOS 6922's, and that's why you're disappionted with their sound.

 

[sacd lover]

The tubes were about 18-20 6BZ7's from GE, Sylvania, RCA/ (GE probably), Tung Sol and Amperex, plus the stock sovtek 6922's. The tubes were all new except for a few random pairs with a couple hours on them (I used these to make sure they were working ok as my tester is dead).... and one set of GE 6BZ7's I preferred using most of the time. The other tubes were nib, nos 6as7 and 6080 Tung Sols; except for one tung sol 6AS7 I had in the amp. All the new tubes need break in. The amp itself is likely, but possibly not fully broken in. The 6922's had maybe 50-60 hours on them.

I have enjoyed the enthusiastic PM's from you with each new set of tubes you try. But... if your like me, I lock on to the best quality of a different tube at the outset. Therefore, I have to be careful and continue to listen for some time until I annoint any particular tube the best for me. I didnt think the 6922 was bad... and it was the quietest set of tubes in the Woo, but it sounded very bland to me. I much preferred the GE 6BZ7's for their more open and airy sound. I also found the GE's to be more resolving in my set up. Sometimes certain tubes are obviously better sounding but you have to compare them equally to be sure you get the right one. IMO,the 6922's (and the one set of GE's) are likely stabilized where the other tubes need more use before you really can compare them. Myself, I felt something was missing with the 6922 when listening for enjoyment, even a short time... and I kept going back to the GE's.

The other fact is some music mates best with certain tubes because the tubes sound signature will enhance certain positives or cover up certain flaws. Once you move to different music you can have a completely different take on whats the better tube. I like to listen to tubes (introducing no additional variables) with lots of different music and see if the tubes in question simply continue to hold my interest. The best tube, for you, will be the one you keep going back to. Remember, often it takes some time for your perception/brain to catch up with all the new information thats being presented with each new tube. Something initially off putting can eventually become attractive... and the opposite applies too.

So, I guess my advice is take your time and dont make any sweeping pronouncements until you have used the tubes with several music styles and most importantly.... spent adequate time with each tube set. If you do, your true preferance will become clear.

Finally, back to your original question, I have heard poor sounding nos tubes(usually 6dj8-6922/12ax7/12au7 from the late 60's or early 70's) that were no better than some new production tubes. However, if you hunt down the better examples of a particular tube type, IME, the better nos tubes are decidely superior.

 

[EdipisReks]

w00t, i made the particularly cool head-fier list!

*ahem*, back on topic: i hear a big difference with some tubes, and with other it is a relatively small difference. i agree that it is hard to get accurate impressions, since the tube switch takes a little while (i find i can get 90% of the sound after letting the tube warm up for 5 minutes, then it steadily gets better for half an hour). my amp shows pretty big differences in tubes in both the gain and output positions, so i have found some combinations that sound good for certain music.

for instance, a marconi 6FQ7 for gain and my pair of cryo rca 6CG7's sound great for jazz, with the marconi giving a liquid, extended sound and the cryo rca's giving some snap to the sound. for electronica, i use an electro-harmonix for gain and a pair of "regular" rca cleartops or a pair of ei 6cg7's for output, and i get a lot of bass from the electro-harmonix, and the cleartops/ei's give the sound a bit of focus. for rock i have been using a sylvania 6CG7 for gain and a matched pair of national 6CG7's for output. i can't pinpoint it precisely, but this set just makes rock, well, rock! i have another pair of sylvanias and a pair of GE's that i switch in and out, but i haven't found the ideal match yet.

even though i've found some great pairings, i still tend to mix and match a lot as i listen, especially during longer listening sessions. thanks to sacd lover, i've been able to find a lot of different sounds that i really like, and i think that swapping around the tubes is about half of the fun of having a tube amp. in general i've found the NOS tubes to be better than the modern ones, but the ei's are pretty close to the cleartops and the electro harmonix definitely has it's place for certain music.

 

[jamato8]

The tubes that came with your amp are NOS. They may be just the ones, by chance, that you prefer. The tubes you received from your friend could have been used but there are a number of NOS tubes that are not all that good sounding. They work fine but do not sound all that good when critical listening is done. Also sadly, many manufactures started putting out poorer quality tubes near the end of the past use of tubes in the 70's. This trend started in the 60's. Some tube manufactures never were that great for audio and were hit and miss with occasional winners.

John

 

[ReasonablyLucid]

My only expereinces with tubes are 6sn7's in my mpx3 and i know for a fact the NOS tubes sound a hell of a lot better than current production ones

 

[jamato8]

Most current production 6SN7 tubes are junk, I would have to agree. NOS 6SN7's, one of the most produced (huge numbers produced) tubes of all times, are very available, if not a little expenisive at times.

John

 

[jamato8]

Posted twice by accident.

John

 

[10068]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamato8 The tubes that came with your amp are NOS.

Really?

whoops

So when are the stock WOo Audio 3 tubes made? I just assumed they were new types of tubes, since most amps tend to come with new tubes (from what i've heard. i may be totally mistaken here as this thread has shown

)

But hey, even if i make myself look like a stupid jack@$$, i learn from it.

 

[sacd lover]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sduibek Really? whoops So when are the stock WOo Audio 3 tubes made? I just assumed they were new types of tubes, since most amps tend to come with new tubes (from what i've heard. i may be totally mistaken here as this thread has shown ) But hey, even if i make myself look like a stupid jack@$$, i learn from it.

The only new production tubes you received were the sovtek 6922's. There is a current production 6as7 but the 6as7 tubes you have are all nos tung sols from the late 1950's- early 1960's. The 6bz7's are nos tubes and I think the date codes I found had them being produced in the early to mid 1960's. New Old Stock means the tubes are new, as in unused, but they arent in current production. Tube production for most tube types ceased long ago.

 

[10068]

Okay okay okay. SO... eh.... *brain chugging along slowly*

the tubes that originally come with the Woo.. are... new production? or New Old Stock?

 

[jamato8]

Old stock. the driver tubes are made in the seventies (late) and the 6080 maybe in the early 70's.

John