[bigshot]

The best way to enjoy it is to go out and get a whole bunch of great music.

 

[pibroch]

Agreed pinnahertz, except that in my view different fora vary enormously in their value. For example I've found the Gearslutz mastering forum and the Gearslutz high end forum to have some extremely valuable discussions comparing professional audio equipment. (And I never consider purchasing anything other than gear marketed at and used extensively in the recording industry and made by manufacturers having a longstanding good reputation for quality and after sales service. My only recent exception was an inexpensive impulse buy based on a head-fi thread - the "HiFi" product in question proved worse than useless in that it severely degraded the sound of my pro gear system.)

 

[bigshot]

I may be lucky but I've never run across a DAC that isn't audibly transparent.

 

[pibroch]

I may be lucky but I've never run across a DAC that isn't audibly transparent.

Haha - good one!

 

[sohho]

I've heard so many times that "all good DACs sound the same" or something along the lines of that, so my question is, at what point (if there is one) do you think the difference between DACs become negligible?

I don't plan on getting a high end DAC for quite some time, but I am curious and I wasn't able to find an answer through a quick google search.

To me they do not sound the same at all… some people may argue that there is no difference, but… as I always say “there is no difference and I HEAR no difference, are two totally different things”… if someone can hear the difference someone else is not hearing and CAN point that difference in a blind test, then the second person´s audition is not as accurate as the first person´s is... plain and simple...

 

[pinnahertz]

Those that claim vast differences in DAC sound typically share a few commonalities:

1. They are doing fully sighted comparisons
2. They cannot, or will not, perform an ABX/DBT of two DACs
3. They often/typically discredit or refuse to acknowledge the validity of an ABX test
4. They often/typically refuse to recognize the powerful effects of expectation bias
5. Their observations and opinions are thus based completely on uncontrolled and fully biased, sighted comparisons.
6. Their observations are almost always presented as "I know what I hear"...
7. They believe their observations are 100% valid and infallible, or nearly so.
8. Many strongly believe there are mysterious audio properties that defy measurement, or that measurements cannot be correlated with audibility.

There are a few exceptions, those that have done real controlled comparisons and collected real data, but these are exceptions, and will state their observations within that setting.

 

[pibroch]

Those that claim vast differences in DAC sound typically share a few commonalities:

1. They are doing fully sighted comparisons
2. They cannot, or will not, perform an ABX/DBT of two DACs
3. They often/typically discredit or refuse to acknowledge the validity of an ABX test
4. They often/typically refuse to recognize the powerful effects of expectation bias
5. Their observations and opinions are thus based completely on uncontrolled and fully biased, sighted comparisons.
6. Their observations are almost always presented as "I know what I hear"...
7. They believe their observations are 100% valid and infallible, or nearly so.
8. Many strongly believe there are mysterious audio properties that defy measurement, or that measurements cannot be correlated with audibility.

There are a few exceptions, those that have done real controlled comparisons and collected real data, but these are exceptions, and will state their observations within that setting.

Perhaps you could cite the ABX/DBT studies on which you base these conclusions?

 

[pinnahertz]

Perhaps you could cite the ABX/DBT studies on which you base these conclusions?

The above post was an observation about those that take a certain stance. There were no ABX tests, nor any required.

edit: ...Ah! Humor! Ar ar ar ar....

 

[gregorio]

For example I've found the Gearslutz mastering forum and the Gearslutz high end forum to have some extremely valuable discussions comparing professional audio equipment. (And I never consider purchasing anything other than gear marketed at and used extensively in the recording industry and made by manufacturers having a longstanding good reputation for quality and after sales service.

Gearslutz is full of newbs and wannabe's but there are also a few extremely well informed people there. This means that there can be some very useful information to be had but one has to know enough to separate the wheat from the chaff and much of that chaff is not much better than some of the nonsense found in many of the forums here!

Back on topic, I was present at a double blind testing of some top ADCs/DACs organised by an industry magazine (pro audio industry). This was about 7 or 8 years ago and on test was a Prism Dream ADA8XR, the new (at the time) top of the line AVID 16 channel AD/DA, a much older, previous generation AVID (DigiDesign) AD/DA and the top of the line Apogee, it was held a a world class studio in London and present were some of the country's top engineers and producers. It was possible to identify a difference between them but took ages and was shockingly difficult. Everyone was surprised at how little difference there was between them. For some time, the old generation AVID (from about 2000) was actually the favoured one of the four but eventually, after much discussion and many turns in the sweet spot it ended up as the fourth choice, of course we didn't know it was the old generation AD/DA until after the test. If it weren't for the discussions and pooled observations I wouldn't have put the old AVID last, I'd have put the Prism last, which would have been slightly embarrassing, as I personally owned that Prism unit at the time! Without that world class control room, I would have heard no difference at all and been reduced to random guessing. And, this wasn't just a test of the DAC sections but of the AD and DA sections combined, I don't think any of us would have got the difference on just the DAC sections alone, we almost gave up with the combined sections! Would an audiophile in his home environment be able to achieve what some of the best ears in the business in a world class studio couldn't? I can't say for certain of course without testing every single audiophile but my personal opinion and with today's digital technology, not a chance! BTW, I was an invited guest, not one of the golden ears featured in the article, just pointing this out as the above could sound seriously immodest otherwise.

G

 

[bigshot]

Haha - good one!

I got a Oppo HA-1 and decided to run some comparison tests on it with a sound engineer friend using Oppo PM-1 headphones. We level matched and compared it to my iMac and an older model iPod classic and couldn't discern any difference at all. In the past, I've compared players- from a $35 DVD player from Walmart to an $900 Philips SACD player and an Oppo BDP-103. No differences in audible sound there either.

Like I say, this may just be the stuff I've had come across my desk. I'm sure if I was getting small brand boutique DACs aimed at dyed in the wool audiophools, I would probably see a lot more variation there. But I don't bother with anything that doesn't claim that it is clean and balanced. I don't want to have to deal with correcting for "house sounds" on the back end.

 

[Strangelove424]

I meant more like that I could put in my two cents in when people are talking about experiences with DACs, and I guess "war" wasn't the best choice of words on my part. I don't think of this as a war, I think of it as a bunch of people who are passionate about audio coming together and trying to find the best way to enjoy it.

Amen to that.

I got an e-mail alert from Massdrop and thought of this thread: GraceDesign Standard DAC $80 w/ shipping. It's pretty basic in features, but supports up to 24/96 and the specs are detailed and impressive, far better than I've seen for 10x the cost. I'm not telling you to buy this, my point is if you are looking to spend money on a good DAC, don't spend a fortune.

The best way to enjoy it is to go out and get a whole bunch of great music.

Good advice. The high comes from the music. If you try to find it in the equipment you'll end up broke, nuts, or both. The purchase of the equipment is a rational process. The enjoyment of music is an emotional one. When you try to extract too much emotion from the equipment, it's self-defeating and disappointing. If you need a need new high, don't buy a new DAC or even new headphones, go find a new band to like.

 

[pibroch]

Gearslutz is full of newbs and wannabe's but there are also a few extremely well informed people there. This means that there can be some very useful information to be had but one has to know enough to separate the wheat from the chaff and much of that chaff is not much better than some of the nonsense found in many of the forums here!

Back on topic, I was present at a double blind testing of some top ADCs/DACs organised by an industry magazine (pro audio industry). This was about 7 or 8 years ago and on test was a Prism Dream ADA8XR, the new (at the time) top of the line AVID 16 channel AD/DA, a much older, previous generation AVID (DigiDesign) AD/DA and the top of the line Apogee, it was held a a world class studio in London and present were some of the country's top engineers and producers. It was possible to identify a difference between them but took ages and was shockingly difficult. Everyone was surprised at how little difference there was between them. For some time, the old generation AVID (from about 2000) was actually the favoured one of the four but eventually, after much discussion and many turns in the sweet spot it ended up as the fourth choice, of course we didn't know it was the old generation AD/DA until after the test. If it weren't for the discussions and pooled observations I wouldn't have put the old AVID last, I'd have put the Prism last, which would have been slightly embarrassing, as I personally owned that Prism unit at the time! Without that world class control room, I would have heard no difference at all and been reduced to random guessing. And, this wasn't just a test of the DAC sections but of the AD and DA sections combined, I don't think any of us would have got the difference on just the DAC sections alone, we almost gave up with the combined sections! Would an audiophile in his home environment be able to achieve what some of the best ears in the business in a world class studio couldn't? I can't say for certain of course without testing every single audiophile but my personal opinion and with today's digital technology, not a chance! BTW, I was an invited guest, not one of the golden ears featured in the article, just pointing this out as the above could sound seriously immodest otherwise.

G

Now that's a proper test!

 

[Malfunkt]

I have found I can make my ODAC sound as good as $2500 dac, simply by placing a couple hundred dollars on top of it. I tend not to put too much money on my DAC just because the cats usually walk off with it.

People are either having auditory hallucinations or can hear something I can't. I don't care either way

 

[ev13wt]

... I'm sure if I was getting small brand boutique DACs aimed at dyed in the wool audiophools, I would probably see a lot more variation there. But I don't bother with anything that doesn't claim that it is clean and balanced. I don't want to have to deal with correcting for "house sounds" on the back end.

This sums up the differences people hear quite nicely.

 

[Niouke]

I got a Oppo HA-1 and decided to run some comparison tests on it with a sound engineer friend using Oppo PM-1 headphones. We level matched and compared it to my iMac and an older model iPod classic and couldn't discern any difference at all. In the past, I've compared players- from a $35 DVD player from Walmart to an $900 Philips SACD player and an Oppo BDP-103. No differences in audible sound there either.

Like I say, this may just be the stuff I've had come across my desk. I'm sure if I was getting small brand boutique DACs aimed at dyed in the wool audiophools, I would probably see a lot more variation there. But I don't bother with anything that doesn't claim that it is clean and balanced. I don't want to have to deal with correcting for "house sounds" on the back end.

Did you test the whole source + dac + amp chain in one go? Because You would think that the amp section would have a significant impact on the Oppo PM-1's performance?