[jandara]

What sound card has the best A/D converters for vinyl archiving?
I currently use a 1212M, but I'm wondering if it could be upgraded. It lacks punch in the bass.

 

[Glassman]

you have the best A/D converter currently made, you may want to switch the opamps before it for something better.. you can also try different soundcard with the same A/D like ESI Waveterminal 192X..

 

[sgrossklass]

Doesn't the WT192X have POS TL082 opamps?
Anyway, I'd agree that a mod of the 1212M should be all that's needed, as "the rest" is likely to limit the ADC's performance. (On a fairly high level, that is.) But... lack of bass punch?

The 1212M should be excellent for recording out of the box.

 

[jandara]

I'm all new to this so I am wondering if switching the opamps would improve audio playback or recording?

At this point I' m trying to achieve the best possible reproduction of vinyl. I'm also working on upgrading turntable tonearm and cable interconnects.

This might be the subject of another post but is silver tonearm wires and interconnect upgrades a good bang for the bucks?

 

[jandara]

Sgrossglass, the lack of bass on the recordings could come from other weak components of my setup, but imo, compared to the USB M-Audio Audiophile, which wasn't that great, it lacks fuller, rounder bass.

 

[Jasper994]

Hey Glassman, have you heard anything one way or the other about the quality of the "Turntable input (w/ground lug and hardware RIAA preamp)" on the audio dock M? If it's any good it might work wonders for him/her.

 

[lordgibbness]

Hi Jasper,
I see you have the M-Audio BX8 speakers. Do they require an amp to work or do they have an amp built in? Are they as good as bookshelf speakers powered by a proper amp?
Thanks.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

I'm all new to this so I am wondering if switching the opamps would improve audio playback or recording?

Yes but not for the reasons you think.

On the AD Converter side there is no "sound" of the parts involved but you are shooting for accuracy and noise level.The TL series of opamps are not capable of a 24 bit noise floor so will be the limiting factor of the ADC design.In fact,I have not yet used an opamp that IS capable of 24 bits though I am sure there are some out there that fit the list of requirements.
I forego the active stage entirely and use a 4:1 transformer direct input to the balanced ADC input mostly and at best a jfet buffer following the tranformer.

You are looking at noise floor and balanced is the way to go here plus signal level which should NEVER hit 0db.

On the DA Converter side it is ALL about sound and here is where you need to concentrate on sonic improvements if that is your goal.a 16-20 bit DAC is fine for playback but nothing less than 24 bit for recording will do if you want accuracy and digital headroom.
the reality is you are only getting around 20 bits with a 24 bit ADC anayway and not a true 24 bits

 

[Glassman]

in other words, rick if for sigma delta converters and as little active parts at the A/D side and for multibit ladder converters at the D/A side of things

 

[rickcr42]

you nailed it man !

 

[sgrossklass]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman in other words, rick if for sigma delta converters and as little active parts at the A/D side and for multibit ladder converters at the D/A side of things

That sentence had me puzzling for a while. Guess I shouldn't hang around here when I'm tired as heck.

It's surprising what a difference a single typo can make at times:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Glassman in other words, rick is for sigma delta converters and as little active parts at the A/D side and for multibit ladder converters at the D/A side of things

BTW, aren't good audio xformers not entirely easy to do? That magnetic stuff is fairly mean, hysteresis and all. I'd assume you're trading noise for linearity; TANSTAAFL.

 

[jandara]

All things being equal, would recordings captured with a Lynx 2 soundcard sound better than with the 1212M?

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

BTW, aren't good audio xformers not entirely easy to do? That magnetic stuff is fairly mean, hysteresis and all. I'd assume you're trading noise for linearity; TANSTAAFL

the good ones are far from cheap and in actual real world use there are no detriments.
All charts are available from the better ones and even phse shift is less than you will see from having a single capacitor inline in many cases.what you gain is complete isolation and a dead impedance match plus for a balanced app like an ADC input the absolte BEST solution.

IC balancing schemes are not to better the interface at audio frequencies but an attempt to save at the cost level.in fact even those companies making the chips such as Burr-Brown and ADI will show a transformer as an enhancement of the input stage of their own audio grade InAmps in various application notes.

I use a 4:1 step "down" transformer,usually labelled as a "pro to consumer" line level transformer at the input to cast off excessive gain in the passive domain without adding additional parts in the path such as balanced bridge attenuators where the resistor matching is critical for a good CMRR.
Depending on the actual ADC input parameters determines if or not to add an additional jfet follower to buffer the input to the actual chip.

as in most things there are personal preferences which must be wighed along with cost factor and how far to take a design.even manufacturers must cut certain corners to hit a target price in the market place so even though something may not be commonplace does in no way mean it is not a superior method but that sometimes it is just not a cost effective method.
a good line level tranformer for high end audio will rangle from $60-$100 per channel.No small cost when added to the overall list if making a profit is your goal.

Start at $200 stereo anfd that is for the RAW PARTS only !
Add in actual construction time and before you add ANYTHING else,the casing,the passive parts,the ADC chip cost,the engineering cost,assembly cost.etc. you are already over $200 just for the interface !

in a perfect world everything would be designed for utmost performance and cost little but the truth is even though the manufacturers CAN make the unltimate whatever,most could not afford it and you don't stay in business for long selling one or two of something per month or worse.

Just my personal opinion though,as usual and YMMV