[complex]

Quote:

Isn't there a science forum for debating the validity of power chords?    That's probably the best place to be helpful in this regard.  

 
Yes, and there is also a DBT/science-free forum for discussing cables and other accessories.

 

[edstrelow]

Quote:

Why is it in these forum threads when someone posts what power cords, interconnects, aftermarket headphone cables people LIKE there is always a small percentage that just has to debate the validity of these items?  Is it poor reading comprehension? Must be because I  think the header for this thread is "What power chords do you like for your high-end headphone amp?"    Reading comprehension.  It's a lost skill.
 
Isn't there a science forum for debating the validity of power chords?    That's probably the best place to be helpful in this regard.  

Agreed.

Unfortunately this site has been too lenient, in my opinion, with people who just want to shoot their mouths off even, as in this thread, where to debate whether or not cables make any difference is off-topic.  This makes it very difficult to have any discussion on this topic or on matters such as tweaks.  Certainly I can understand people freaking out over ridiculously high-priced cables and I note that my current Stereophile describes several in the $7K and up range.  However many tweaks are inexpensive and even cost free and yet you still get the smart Alecs  who want to argue about them almost never even having tried them.
 
We would not tolerate someone debating the value of a particular headphone by saying such things as "all headphones sound the same" or "where's your doubleblind test?" and certainly not letting someone who has never heard the time in question give his opinion about the sound of the item.  But somehow this type of bs gets tolerated when dealing with cables and tweaks.
 
I was tempted to start a thread on the Stereophile article again to see who had what experience with such things but I can just see where it will end up.
 
This means that we will never get decent discussions about such matters because people with actual listening experience will not want the unpleasant experience that goes with stating such opinions.
 
 
(BTW I hate the misuse of the term "double-blind testing" on this site.  This refers to an experimental procedure in which neither the subject nor the testor know which experimental condition is being tested for any given trial or subject.  It is not widely used in pyscho-physical experimentation since there are other procedures for controlling for such biases.  However this term seems to have taken on the meaning of "objective testing"  in this forum.  I would say anyone who uses it is showing how little they  know about objective testing.)
 
 
 

 

[n3rdling]

Quote:

 
This means that we will never get decent discussions about such matters because people with actual listening experience will not want the unpleasant experience that goes with stating such opinions.
 
 

 
Maybe I'm reading into this wrong, but are you implying that people who are 'believers' are the only ones in this thread with 'actual listening experience'?  It seems there have been many people in this thread who have 'actual listening experience' and found no changes in sound.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Quote:

 
Yes, and there is also a DBT/science-free forum for discussing cables and other accessories.

 


Quote:

Agreed.

Unfortunately this site has been too lenient, in my opinion, with people who just want to shoot their mouths off even, as in this thread, where to debate whether or not cables make any difference is off-topic.  This makes it very difficult to have any discussion on this topic or on matters such as tweaks.  Certainly I can understand people freaking out over ridiculously high-priced cables and I note that my current Stereophile describes several in the $7K and up range.  However many tweaks are inexpensive and even cost free and yet you still get the smart Alecs  who want to argue about them almost never even having tried them.
 
We would not tolerate someone debating the value of a particular headphone by saying such things as "all headphones sound the same" or "where's your doubleblind test?" and certainly not letting someone who has never heard the time in question give his opinion about the sound of the item.  But somehow this type of bs gets tolerated when dealing with cables and tweaks.
 
I was tempted to start a thread on the Stereophile article again to see who had what experience with such things but I can just see where it will end up.
 
This means that we will never get decent discussions about such matters because people with actual listening experience will not want the unpleasant experience that goes with stating such opinions.
 
 
(BTW I hate the misuse of the term "double-blind testing" on this site.  This refers to an experimental procedure in which neither the subject nor the testor know which experimental condition is being tested for any given trial or subject.  It is not widely used in pyscho-physical experimentation since there are other procedures for controlling for such biases.  However this term seems to have taken on the meaning of "objective testing"  in this forum.  I would say anyone who uses it is showing how little they  know about objective testing.)
 
 
 

If the site was not lenient on the subject of cables there would be 25% less pages for advertizing sidebars.

 

[DaveBSC]

Quote:

Why is it in these forum threads when someone posts what power cords, interconnects, aftermarket headphone cables people LIKE there is always a small percentage that just has to debate the validity of these items?  Is it poor reading comprehension? Must be because I  think the header for this thread is "What power chords do you like for your high-end headphone amp?"    Reading comprehension.  It's a lost skill.
 
Isn't there a science forum for debating the validity of power chords?    That's probably the best place to be helpful in this regard.  

What I've found to be quite amusing reading these posts about power cords is that the general consensus, even from the power cord deniers, seems to be "interconnects and headphone re-cabling yes, power cords no". And yet if you look at similar threads about high-end interconnects or headphone cables, you'll find just as many people who will say "all interconnects sound the same" or "all headphone cables sound the same", and of course anyone who might spend money on interconnects or headphone cables is a fool.
 
Power cords are part of the signal chain, just like a nice toroidal or R-core transformer, high quality oil or teflon capacitors, resistors, etc. The very best ones improve the performance of the connected equipment, with as little of their own signature as possible. Others can alter the sound pretty significantly, which can be good or bad depending on whether your happy with the sound of your system or not. The worst ones don't seem to do anything at all better than a $2 piece of copper with some molded plastic and brass (or worse) on the ends of it.
 
 
 

 

[n3rdling]

'a nice toroidal or R-core transformer, high quality oil or teflon capacitors, resistors, etc.' can all show a measurable difference though.  That's a big part of what makes them 'nice'.  Do you have a link to the measured difference of 'nice' power cords since you brought those components up?  

 

[WarriorAnt]

Does anyone have a power chord they like that they can contribute to this discussion?  

 

[edstrelow]

Quote:

 
Maybe I'm reading into this wrong, but are you implying that people who are 'believers' are the only ones in this thread with 'actual listening experience'?  It seems there have been many people in this thread who have 'actual listening experience' and found no changes in sound.

 
 
Actual listening experience meant of the item in question.  I am sorry about the typo in my previous reply ( time for item) (which didn't make that clear. 
 
It seems  logically impossible for a "denier" to be correct.  Just because you have compared 1000 different cords and found no difference does not allow you to claim that cord no. 1001 will not sound different.  As a factual matter few if any people have heard so many and even  if someone had heard every cord ever made they could still not claim that the next design out would sound the same as the previous ones.
 
Believers have an easier time.  All they need is one cord or cable that sounds different from another to establish the principle that "all cords do not sound the same."
 
 
 

 

[The Monkey]

Um, OK

 

[n3rdling]

Quote:

Does anyone have a power chord they like that they can contribute to this discussion?  

These are pretty cool:
 

 

Sorry, had to. 

 
Quote:

 
 
Actual listening experience meant of the item in question.  I am sorry about the typo in my previous reply ( time for item) (which didn't make that clear. 
 
It seems  logically impossible for a "denier" to be correct.  Just because you have compared 1000 different cords and found no difference does not allow you to claim that cord no. 1001 will not sound different.  As a factual matter few if any people have heard so many and even  if someone had heard every cord ever made they could still not claim that the next design out would sound the same as the previous ones.
 
Believers have an easier time.  All they need is one cord or cable that sounds different from another to establish the principle that "all cords do not sound the same."
 
 
 

This is "interesting" logic, but I do wonder where you'd cross the line?  Shatki stones?  Pixie dust?  Different colored shirts while listening?  I think a big part of the disagreement is over the bolded portion though; we are interested in the real, not imaginary, thus the debate.  I don't think anybody here would say any of these things can't make somebody imagine a difference, but whether they are making any real changes to the signal is a whole different ballgame.  Cheers.
 

 

[TMoney]

Quote:

Does anyone have a power chord they like that they can contribute to this discussion?  

 
I find that the stock power cords that the manufacturers supply with audio gear are really really nice! My own blind test confirmed the benefits of using them vs not using them.
 
In the test I conducted, I discovered that I can easily tell a difference between using the manufacturers supplied cables and not using them. When I didn't use the supplied cables, the "background" I got out of my gear was wonderfully black and quiet. Dead silence. However, when I started playing music there tends to be something missing in the highs... and the mids... and the lows...
 
In contrast, when I used the manufacturers supplied cable and started to play music the gear sounded wonderfully musical with massive improvements! That proves it! The cable makes a difference!
 

 
Also, nice post with the power chords, N3rdling! +1!

 

[DaveBSC]

 
 

 

This is "interesting" logic, but I do wonder where you'd cross the line?  Shatki stones?  Pixie dust?  Different colored shirts while listening?  I think a big part of the disagreement is over the bolded portion though; we are interested in the real, not imaginary, thus the debate.  I don't think anybody here would say any of these things can't make somebody imagine a difference, but whether they are making any real changes to the signal is a whole different ballgame.  Cheers.
 

Define "real". What change has to occur? Frequency response? The sound becoming a half decibel louder? If improvements are imaginary, why would we imagine that something is making the system worse? Why would we want to be disappointed with something? I've never understood this argument. For example, I spent several hundred dollars on a KAS Audio Kaiser XT cord. It was huge, the size of an Aural Symphonics Magic Gem. So it's got that "big = good" thing working for it, plus all of the info on the KAS website telling me how much work they put into the design and how great it is. So I have my considerable investment, plus the visual aspects, and the marketing, all pushing me to imagine that it should kill the other cord I was using (smaller, less visually impressive, less marketing effect). And.... I hated it. Every component I tried it on, it just seemed to strangle the life out of. If power cords have no effect other than placebo, why would I imagine it to stink?
 

 

[Terastr]

Haven't read through the whole thread, yet, but I think the differences between sound due to power cords depends entirely on the context you use it in, for example, using an incredibly high quality microphone with different 'hi-fi' power cables definitely brings out the sound in a completely different way, nearly as if they were EQ'd, but both still with fantastic clarity by comparison to your standard (grounded) eight-figure cable.

 

[WarriorAnt]

Quote:

Haven't read through the whole thread, yet, but I think the differences between sound due to power cords depends entirely on the context you use it in, for example, using an incredibly high quality microphone with different 'hi-fi' power cables definitely brings out the sound in a completely different way, nearly as if they were EQ'd, but both still with fantastic clarity by comparison to your standard (grounded) eight-figure cable.

That's correct. In my 2.5 decades editing and mixing high end broadcast TV in NYC I've come to the same conclusion.  "nearly as if they were EQ'd,"  yes because a cable can act just like a filter which is what EQ is.   

 

[Terastr]

That's correct. In my 2.5 decades editing and mixing high end broadcast TV in NYC I've come to the same conclusion.  "nearly as if they were EQ'd,"  yes because a cable can act just like a filter which is what EQ is.   

If you're being sarcastic then proceed, I don't intend in trying to discredit your 2.5 decades, but I can show you sound samples, one of the cables was significantly fatter sounding.

(Edit: If anything, I joined this forum today to learn from people like you.)