What kind of Ultrasonic Frequencies are in HD Tracks?
Aug 3, 2018 at 8:25 AM Post #31 of 154
@analogsurviver
Using your quoted:
Klangbeispiel 67 - Lyra Etna ( cartridge ) playing "How Deep is the Ocean" track.

What is your explanation for the hereunder?


The lack of recorded information on the record. It can be either/or :

1.) No > 20 kHz content on the - CAUTION, now I AM making a new terminology !!! -

INITIAL recording ( as master can mean soooo maaany things to different people )

( Definition: initial recording is the very first recording made from the microphone feed - no EQ, no compression, no band limitting, no absolutely nothing done to the mike feed, recorded in the best techology available at the time of recording )

2.) Real time transfer to the analogue master from this INITIAL recording

Real time cutting of analogue record master is limited to approx 27 kHz ( depending on the cutting equipment ) - and, as the power required to cut the high frequencies accurately IS enormous ( peak capability of top cutter heads is 400-500 W per channel - meaning a cymbal crash may well require a whole kW of electrical power to engrave the unlimited/uncompressed signal ), engineers tend to limit/compress/ both dynamic and frequency range in the treble - for understandable fear of burning the cutter head's coil(s). Given that all cutter head maintenance/repairs are today handled no longer by the original manufacturers but - at best - former employees of said manufacturers with sufficient knowledge, experience ( and , sadly, young enouh to still be able to work... ) and there are no NOS cutter heads available anywhere, that fear is certainly justifiable. Burning the recording head can put one out of bussiness for months - such is the turnaround for cutter heads these days.

3. Half speed mastering can put signals on analogue master disc up to approx 54 kHz - and requires only 1/4th of the power required for real time cutting, obviously not posing any danger to burn the cutter head, but takes twice as time long to complete. This, obviously, has the potential to place on disc whatever a 96/24 PCM digital recording can record ( frequency wise, dynamic range on conventional record IS limited ) in the first place. Half speed mastering is problematic in bass - because it absolutely requires 10 Hz at 0 dB capability, something that is VERY hard to achive - and has to be done by modifying, normally no cutting lathe I am aware of has been initially designed for half speed mastering. Late maverick among analogue record mastering engineers, Stan Ricker, in his last years used a compromise - 2/3rd speed mastering, which still is capable of approx 40 kHz high end and low end that does not sound anemic - as some half speed mastered records - his included - can sound.

So, short answer - a decent vintage half speed mastered vinyl record made from a high speed ( minimum 38 cm/s) reel to reel analog initial recording should have been used for the true assesment of the phono cartridge playback capability using real music recordings - as opposed to test discs. The reason why such a record has not been selected for demonstrating ONE OF MANY CARTRIDGES has probably something to do with bussiness - not many sponsors would be willing to allow 30-40 years old records to be shown to clearly outperform their modern day counterparts.

Back then, only truly VERY dedicated recording engineers did use microphones with the sufficient response above 20 kHz - usually by modifiying Bruel & Kjaer measuring microphones and making them compatible with studio gear ( all measuring mics are, basically, single ended ). Sheffield, Miller & Kreisel, Reference Recordings, maybe Crystal Clear, maybe more ... of these, only Reference Recordings were made to analogue tape and ( would have to check ..) may have been transfered to disc using half speed mastering.

There is absolutely no reason why today, with all the knowlede gained and lessons learned from the past, modern INITIAL recordings containing music above 20 kHz could be made - and transferred to analogue record at less than real time speed.

P.S: Your post lacks a vital piece of information : WHEN is this "clip" taken - at which exact time of the sample ? There is no way it is taken during the applause - which DOES, unmistakably, contain frequencies well above 20 kHz - and has, at the same time, in the range above 20 kHz about as large amplitude as practicably any musical instrument . Applause is the most consistent, univerasaly known and available "source" of above 20 kHz "music" - if and when captured correctly.
 
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Aug 3, 2018 at 8:28 AM Post #32 of 154
why, on earth, do you think, I am pushing for DSD256 -

No reason "on earth", which is precisely why I've postulated elsewhere that maybe you're on a completely different planet?!

G
 
Aug 3, 2018 at 8:34 AM Post #33 of 154
The lack of recorded information on the record. It can be either/or :

1.) No > 20 kHz content on the - CAUTION, now I AM making a new terminology !!! -

INITIAL recording ( as master can mean soooo maaany things to different people )

( Definition: initial recording is the very first recording made from the microphone feed - no EQ, no compression, no band limitting, no absolutely nothing done to the mike feed, recorded in the best techology available at the time of recording )

2.) Real time transfer to the analogue master from this INITIAL recording

Real time cutting of analogue record master is limited to approx 27 kHz ( depending on the cutting equipment ) - and, as the power required to cut the high frequencies accurately IS enormous ( peak capability of top cutter heads is 400-500 W per channel - meaning a cymbal crash may well require a whole kW of electrical power to engrave the unlimited/uncompressed signal ), engineers tend to limit/compress/ both dynamic and frequency range in the treble - for understandable fear of burning the cutter head's coil(s). Given that all cutter head maintenance/repairs are today handled no longer by the original manufacturers but - at best - former employees of said manufacturers with sufficient knowledge, experience ( and , sadly, young enouh to still be able to work... ) and there are no NOS cutter heads available anywhere, that fear is certainly justifiable. Burning the recording head can put one out of bussiness for months - such is the turnaround for cutter heads these days.

3. Half speed mastering can put signals on analogue master disc up to approx 54 kHz - and requires only 1/4th of the power required for real time cutting, obviously not posing any danger to burn the cutter head, but takes twice as time long to complete. This, obviously, has the potential to place on disc whatever a 96/24 PCM digital recording can record ( frequency wise, dynamic range on conventional record IS limited ) in the first place. Half speed mastering is problematic in bass - because it absolutely requires 10 Hz at 0 dB capability, something that is VERY hard to achive - and has to be done by modifying, normally no cutting lathe I am aware of has been initially designed for half speed mastering. Late maverick among analogue record mastering engineers, Stan Ricker, in his last years used a compromise - 2/3rd speed mastering, which still is capable of approx 40 kHz high end and low end that does not sound anemic - as some half speed mastered records - his included - can sound.

So, short answer - a decent vintage half speed mastered vinyl record made from a high speed ( minimum 38 cm/s) reel to reel analog initial recording should have been used for the true assesment of the phono cartridge playback capability using real music recordings - as opposed to test discs. The reason why such a record has not been selected for demonstrating ONE OF MANY CARTRIDGES has probably something to do with bussiness - not many sponsors would be willing to allow 30-40 years old records to be shown to clearly outperform their modern day counterparts.

Back then, only truly VERY dedicated recording engineers did use microphones with the sufficient response above 20 kHz - usually by modifiying Bruel & Kjaer measuring microphones and making them compatible with studio gear ( all measuring mics are, basically, single ended ). Sheffield, Miller & Kreisel, Reference Recordings, maybe Crystal Clear, maybe more ... of these, only Reference Recordings were made to analogue tape and ( would have to check ..) may have been transfered to disc using half speed mastering.

There is absolutely no reason why today, with all the knowlede gained and lessons learned from the past, modern INITIAL recordings containing music above 20 kHz could be made - and transferred to analogue record at less than real time speed.


Well I probably didn't explain properly but my point was dealing with the under 20kHz behavior not the above one: spikes and signal noise above 14kHz.

Edited: Image added.

Etna_sme.jpg
 
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Aug 3, 2018 at 9:03 AM Post #34 of 154
Well I probably didn't explain properly but my point was dealing with the under 20kHz behavior not the above one: spikes and signal noise above 14kHz.

Edited: Image added.

This is a LIVE recording.

About a week ago, I recorded DSD128 - and it was spike free all the way to the top - minimum to 55 kHtz, where the ADC noise starts creeping in.

Then, a SINGLE light was turned on towards the end of the rehearsal > DING, a 19 kHz spike appeared. Then, by turning all the lights, more spikes appeared. And all hell broke lose when in the second part all those lights got dimmed.

In short - most probably these spikes are inherent quality of the INITIAL live recording - and microphones have - quite correctly - captured what has actually been in the air.

Analog cutting and reproducing equipment should not have such high Q resonances as seen in the peaks of this sample. And, to add something to the MM vs MC cartidge debate; MCs can - RARELY - produce such spikes ; if and when a single turn of the coil somehow gets loose and resonates with such high Q. MMs can not do such a thing in practice - but MC with this defect will ruin a test record in a single play.

DON'T ASK HOW I know it ... - because finding that cart with an ocasional lose turn of a wire in the moving coil IS a costly but required measure to make sure no such cart can reach the customer.
 
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Aug 3, 2018 at 11:59 AM Post #35 of 154
These aren't my graphs, but a fellow poster here sent these to me because I was interested in seeing exactly what sort of content existed above 20kHz in 24/96 downloads. Take a look at these...

brahmspianoconcerto2annamalikovadarlingtonallegro.jpg

http://www.vintageip.com/pics/brahmspianoconcerto2annamalikovadarlingtonallegro.jpg
This one is Brahms Piano Concerto No 2: Anna Malikova / Darlington - Allegro
Nothing above 6kHz... except for a big old wad of noise between 60kHz and 90.

markknopflertracker2015laughsandjokesanddrinksandxmoke.jpg

http://www.vintageip.com/pics/markknopflertracker2015laughsandjokesanddrinksandxmoke.jpg
Here's Mark Knopfler: Tracker 2015 - Laughs And Jokes And Drinks And Smoke
A nice continuous tone at 55kHz that's louder than the music!

norahjonescomeawaywithme2012.jpg

http://www.vintageip.com/pics/norahjonescomeawaywithme2012.jpg
Now, Norah Jones: Come Away With Me 2012
A normal CD rolloff to 20kHz followed by a hump of high frequency noise and a spike at80kHz.

yesclosetotheedgesiberiankhatru.jpg

http://www.vintageip.com/pics/yesclosetotheedgesiberiankhatru.jpg
Yes: Close To The Edge - Siberian Khatru
Rolloff, noise hump, flurry of spikes.

By theory, fs/2, so something's wrong there ... maybe guy behind measures should set the SPAN Mode to 48kHz then?
 
Aug 3, 2018 at 12:04 PM Post #36 of 154
This guy is a curse. It's getting to be a real drag.
 
Aug 3, 2018 at 12:11 PM Post #37 of 154
I'm addressing everyone but analog here... Do any of you have any idea what created this noise and at what point in production it was introduced? Should normal quality control standards have caught this? Do you see any reason for these recordings to be released at 24/96 in the first place?

This is the first I've heard of this issue and HD Tracks have been putting out downloads for a long time. The fact that no one seems to have noticed the high frequency noise speaks to the audibility of this stuff. And the fact that their customers keep buying it and thinking it's superior to redbook amazes me. I guess most audiophiles don't even bother to check. They take what they're told at face value.
 
Aug 3, 2018 at 12:19 PM Post #39 of 154
[1] Do any of you have any idea what created this noise and at what point in production it was introduced? Should normal quality control standards have caught this?
[2] Do you see any reason for these recordings to be released at 24/96 in the first place?

1. I responded to this previously, post #27, in both my direct response to you and my response to danadam.
2. Nope, apart from the marketing potential of course.

G
 
Aug 3, 2018 at 12:23 PM Post #40 of 154
Can you please explain that graph? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that format and I'm having trouble reading it. The vertical is frequency. What is the horizontal? And does this represent a whole album side or a moment of time?
 
Aug 3, 2018 at 12:29 PM Post #41 of 154
Can you please explain that graph? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with that format and I'm having trouble reading it. The vertical is frequency. What is the horizontal? And does this represent a whole album side or a moment of time?

Graph was made using Audacity and the horizontal is time in seconds ... in this case, a 28s sample from album mentioned there in image.
ATM, I can't recall what song it was in question but, IIRC there were bells or xylophones played on those moments 'spikes' appeared. I did bring the HF parts (>20kHz) to the human hearable area (20-20k) and was able to hear the instruments there so, not just distortion >20kHz in this case.
 
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Aug 3, 2018 at 12:35 PM Post #42 of 154
What are those big spikes? Drum hits? I don't know of an instrument that could produce 85kHz like that. Could it be distortion or noise?

One other thing that's odd... there appears to be a slight time offset to where the spike occurs on the top chart relative to the bottom. Could it be groove modulation bleeding through to the next groove and creating a peak on the opposite channel one LP revolution later? This looks like a record that was cut with the peaks too hot and it's distorting at the inner grooves.
 
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Aug 3, 2018 at 1:20 PM Post #43 of 154
This is an example vinyl recording I did to another forum years ago ... :

JA_hf_28s.png


Technics EPC205CMK3 cart recorded using EMU0404USB.

My, BY FAR THE MOST desired - and most elusive CART - EVER !

In any shape or form - like yours IEC/SME headshell version, 1/2" or P-Mount version - ALL have the very same problem - TTDD ( Technics Temperature Defense Damper ) damper material deteriorates and cart - or more precisely, stylus - can no longer support the required vertical tracking force. Leading to tracking problems and distortion - unusable.

Same with the even better version, blablaMK4. Difference is effective mass of the stylus - 0.149mg for MK3, 0.109mg for MK4. Adds some more HF response accordingly.
 
Aug 3, 2018 at 1:28 PM Post #44 of 154
What are those big spikes? Drum hits? I don't know of an instrument that could produce 85kHz like that. Could it be distortion or noise?

One other thing that's odd... there appears to be a slight time offset to where the spike occurs on the top chart relative to the bottom. Could it be groove modulation bleeding through to the next groove and creating a peak on the opposite channel one LP revolution later? This looks like a record that was cut with the peaks too hot and it's distorting at the inner grooves.

As I mentioned IIRC there were bells or some similar 'instruments' played on those big spikes. I'll try to find the recording when I get to the computer it was done with.
 
Aug 3, 2018 at 1:31 PM Post #45 of 154

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