[Barncore]

Hey everyone, i'm in the process of buying headphones, but i'm not sure what my amping situation is like. I have an audio interface that converts audio between my computer and headphones, it's a TASCAM US-1800. The specs for the headphone jack, according to the manual, are as follows:

Connector: 6.3 mm (1/4") Standard stereo phone jack
Maximum output: 50 mW + 50 mW
(1 kHz, 1%, 32 ohm load)

I'm assuming it's not an amazing amp, but i'm sure it's a bit better than plugging it straight into a laptop or desktop computer. 2 questions:

1. What am i working with here? What's the quality like?

2. What kind of headphones would be a good match for my interface?

I've been doing some research over the past week and the headphones i've narrowed my purchase down to are: AKG K702, Sennheiser HD600, Beyerdynamic DT880. My purposes are music production (mixing, mastering, composing). Would the amp suffice for any of those?

I tested some AKG Q701's on my interface and they sounded pretty good (very wide and detailed and bright), but i have nothing to compare it against because i haven't heard them in any other situation, so i have no idea how they'd sound if i had a proper amp. I'm interested to know whether my interface is decent or not.

Thanks,
Nic

 

[cossix]

With a small power output of 100 mW or so at 32 ohms, it won't be very good at driving any high impedance headphone like the HD600. If you are looking into buying a nice set of cans, I'd strongly recommend you throw an extra hundred bucks into something like the Schiit Magni 2. It puts out way more power and will really bring the headphones to life compared to the weaker interface you have now. Magni 2 really shoves incredible value into such an inexpensive price point and I think headphones such as the ones you mentioned deserve a good amp. You should notice better dynamics, ability to achieve higher volumes, more balanced and cleaner sound, and probably some extra punch to the lower end. I hope you can stretch your budget to include a decent amp, I really think it makes the headphone investment worth it!

 

[Barncore]

Thanks for the quick response!
Hmm i see.
My current life circumstances mean that my budget is low and strict unfortunately. I have to either buy the good headphones without an amp or buy cheaper headphones with an amp. I do understand the importance of an amp, but there's not a lot of choice about it.

The HD600 was the one i was leaning towards buying. So just to be clear, if i try drive those through my current interface, what am i losing out on? I thought maybe it would just be a matter of volume, but i would also lose out on better dynamics and more low-end?
I thought Q701's sounded like they were lacking some "pressure/punch" in the low-end when i tested them, but from what i read around the net that seems like a common perception with the AKG's. But i read that the HD600's are more efficient to drive than the AKG's and less amp picky. How true is that?

 

[Music Alchemist]

50 mW + 50 mW likely just means 50 mW per channel at 32 ohms, and less at higher impedances. My audio interface has a similarly weak headphone amp that is pretty much useless. (It distorts quickly.) Get a real amp if you aren't going to be using very sensitive headphones.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Hey everyone, i'm in the process of buying headphones, but i'm not sure what my amping situation is like. I have an audio interface that converts audio between my computer and headphones, it's a TASCAM US-1800. The specs for the headphone jack, according to the manual, are as follows:

Connector: 6.3 mm (1/4") Standard stereo phone jack
Maximum output: 50 mW + 50 mW
(1 kHz, 1%, 32 ohm load)

I'm assuming it's not an amazing amp, but i'm sure it's a bit better than plugging it straight into a laptop or desktop computer. 2 questions:

1. What am i working with here?

A headphone amp circuit not that much more powerful than a Fiio M3 mini DAP but has higher THD, and possibly a high but undisclosed output impedance.

What's the quality like?

I wouldn't use it unless you really need the ADC side of that device.

2. What kind of headphones would be a good match for my interface?

I've been doing some research over the past week and the headphones i've narrowed my purchase down to are: AKG K702, Sennheiser HD600, Beyerdynamic DT880. My purposes are music production (mixing, mastering, composing). Would the amp suffice for any of those?

Scratch off the K702 (and DT880 32ohm) given its lower impedance and sensitivity.

I tested some AKG Q701's on my interface and they sounded pretty good (very wide and detailed and bright), but i have nothing to compare it against because i haven't heard them in any other situation, so i have no idea how they'd sound if i had a proper amp. I'm interested to know whether my interface is decent or not.

Likely you like the coloration and possibly the effect of lower damping factor on it, and you're not listening loud enough anyway. You might as well keep using that one. If it's borrowed I'd get an HD600.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Hey everyone, i'm in the process of buying headphones, but i'm not sure what my amping situation is like. I have an audio interface that converts audio between my computer and headphones, it's a TASCAM US-1800. The specs for the headphone jack, according to the manual, are as follows:

Connector: 6.3 mm (1/4") Standard stereo phone jack
Maximum output: 50 mW + 50 mW
(1 kHz, 1%, 32 ohm load)
I'm assuming it's not an amazing amp, but i'm sure it's a bit better than plugging it straight into a laptop or desktop computer. 2 questions:
1. What am i working with here? What's the quality like?
2. What kind of headphones would be a good match for my interface?
I've been doing some research over the past week and the headphones i've narrowed my purchase down to are: AKG K702, Sennheiser HD600, Beyerdynamic DT880. My purposes are music production (mixing, mastering, composing). Would the amp suffice for any of those?
I tested some AKG Q701's on my interface and they sounded pretty good (very wide and detailed and bright), but i have nothing to compare it against because i haven't heard them in any other situation, so i have no idea how they'd sound if i had a proper amp. I'm interested to know whether my interface is decent or not.
Thanks,Nic

If your looking into headphones for audio mixing & mastering & composing & etc.
Check out the Sony MDR-V6 or MDR-7506 headphones, they are 60-Ohms and usually sell for around $100 or less.
My two cents is the AKG 700 series and Sennheiser HD600/650/6XX and Beyer DT880 are more for the end user looking to enjoy music.
While the MDR-V6/7506 are more for neutral and boring, better for analyzing audio.
Guessing the AKG & Sennheiser and Beyer might do a decent job for audio creation/production, you really do not need to spend that much for headphones for audio work.

 

[Barncore]

A headphone amp circuit not that much more powerful than a Fiio M3 mini DAP but has higher THD, and possibly a high but undisclosed output impedance.

I don't really know what that means. I do know that Fiio is generally the cheaper amps, right? Can those M3 minis do a solid job or no? I don't know anything about that model.
What is THD?

Scratch off the K702 (and DT880 32ohm) given its lower impedance and sensitivity.

So higher impedance headphones are a better match for my interface? Is that because of the 1/8th thing? So around 250ohm headphones are a better fit (solely in regards to impedance)?

Likely you like the coloration and possibly the effect of lower damping factor on it, and you're not listening loud enough anyway. You might as well keep using that one. If it's borrowed I'd get an HD600.

It was definitely loud enough. I only had to turn my volume knob to half way for it to be loud. Any louder and my ears ring afterwards. Volume definitely wasn't an issue with Q701.
Although i wasn't feeling a ton of "pressure" from the low-end. So maybe that's what you mean.

Q701 is borrowed. Gotta get something else.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[Barncore]

If your looking into headphones for audio mixing & mastering & composing & etc.
Check out the Sony MDR-V6 or MDR-7506 headphones, they are 60-Ohms and usually sell for around $100 or less.
My two cents is the AKG 700 series and Sennheiser HD600/650/6XX and Beyer DT880 are more for the end user looking to enjoy music.
While the MDR-V6/7506 are more for neutral and boring, better for analyzing audio.
Guessing the AKG & Sennheiser and Beyer might do a decent job for audio creation/production, you really do not need to spend that much for headphones for audio work.

You must be the only person on the entire internet that i've seen say that. Everything i've read so far (and it's a lot, i've been up until 4am reading most nights) people say that the AKG 700 series are the best for analytical work because of their flat response and detail. I've seen mastering engineers recommend them.
HD600 are known for being great for referencing too, relative to the other HD models.
And the DT880's are specifically made for being reference headphones too, relative to the other Beyerdynamic models.
Also, i've read that those 7506 Sony's are great but they hype the bass a bit and are better for tracking than mixing.
Have you used all of those headphones? I'm assuming you have, you just have a polar opposite opinion to the general consensus which has thrown me out a bit.

Does anybody agree or disagree with PurpleAngel's perspective?

Thanks for the replies everybody. This helps a lot.

 

[Barncore]

With a small power output of 100 mW or so at 32 ohms, it won't be very good at driving any high impedance headphone like the HD600.

Isn't the impedance of the amp output supposed to be less than 1/8th of the headphone impedance? That's what i read here: https://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html

 

[cossix]

Isn't the impedance of the amp output supposed to be less than 1/8th of the headphone impedance? That's what i read here: https://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html

Yes, damping factor is important and you don't want to run 32 ohm headphones out of a 20ohm output impedance amp, but you also don't want to drive 300 ohm headphones out of an amp that can only push 50mW per channel at 32 ohms (much much less power at 300 ohms). That's like trying to start your car with a handful of AA batteries. For reference, the FiiO E10k puts out 200mW at 32 ohms or similar, and even that is a very underpowered amp for the 600/650. It's not the end of the world to not have an amp for those type of headphones but if you never get one, for the 600 let's say, then the sound you're getting isn't worth close to what you paid for the headphone.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I don't really know what that means.

It means that just in terms of amp circuit output and form factor it's basically got around the same power output as Fiio intended is sufficient for a tiny DAP driving mostly IEMs. The M3 has lower distortion ratio to its power output too, so the sound is cleaner on that one, even at the same rated output level. In short, barring gain differences that might make one louder than the other or personal preferences in favour of the end result with distortion factored in (something more common with people who prefer tube amps, but not impossible in any other scenario), the tiny $50 DAP might sound better than your interface.

What is THD?

Total Harmonic Distortion. It's presented as % meaning how much of what you'd hear is amplifier distortion. Doesn't take into account yet that the headphones reshape the sound, or if you're already clipping the amp.

I do know that Fiio is generally the cheaper amps, right?

Yes but you're paying for the other features - ie the ADC circuit - on your interface.

Can those M3 minis do a solid job or no? I don't know anything about that model.

Whether an amp will do a good job or not depends on the load on it: output impedance interacting with load impedance (nominal and swings), output power at impedance (ie voltage and current output) and load sensitivity, and then there's how much isolation you get that determines how loud you need to push it to get beyond that. A 1298cc Testastretta V-Twin will do a great job powering a tube frame bike with a single sided swing arm but that doesn't mean it can be mounted on a shooting brake coupe that needs a 6.5L quincevalvole V12 to go fast, particularly to go from 60 to 90mph to get past slow trucks.

Basically, the weight of that car or bike frame and body will be like the sensitivity of the headphone. Use a high enough sensitivity - 96dB or higher - and it's not a real problem. But use something with 150ohms impedance or higher too so you get around the output impedance. That or try the headphone out, if you like the combo then might as well go with that.

So higher impedance headphones are a better match for my interface? Is that because of the 1/8th thing? So around 250ohm headphones are a better fit (solely in regards to impedance)?

Yes to all that.

It was definitely loud enough. I only had to turn my volume knob to half way for it to be loud. Any louder and my ears ring afterwards. Volume definitely wasn't an issue with Q701.
Although i wasn't feeling a ton of "pressure" from the low-end. So maybe that's what you mean.

Gain is also a factor. You can get louder with high gain, it just doesn't change how loud it can go before the signal clips.

For the most part though you don't seem to hear anything you really dislike, unlike how the K701 sounded like a tin can on my speaker amp's headphone output as well as a Little Dot MkII. It's not clear enough if the lack of bass response on the Q701 is due to your interface unless you've already tried it with another amp that has a lot of power and a low output impedance to compare. For all I know what seems like lower bass pressure with that is actually louder bass vs something like the O2, since the output impedance mismatch can do both - either shave off the bass or boost it. Neither does not mean do it so severely as to sound like a tin can (as with my NAD 304 and Little Dot MkII, both of which had a 120ohm output impedance - even most interfaces at lower price points have it a lot lower than that) nor totally sound like an incoming avalanche. Bass can still be weak, just lack definition for example.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Also, i've read that those 7506 Sony's are great but they hype the bass a bit and are better for tracking than mixing.

The Sony MDR-7506 is bright and harsh to the point of causing me physical pain. It's also bass-light, but if I push the pads closer to my ears, it begins to sound more like a subwoofer. You can get an idea of how inaccurate its tonal balance is by clicking the measurements below. Many people are fooled into thinking it's accurate simply because of the fact that it's used in studios, but that in itself means nothing. In reality, all sorts of headphones are used in studios for various purposes. They even have models that were chosen specifically because of how bad they sound. At any rate, it's not too difficult to equalize it, especially with automated programs like Sonarworks.

http://en.goldenears.net/4726

Isn't the impedance of the amp output supposed to be less than 1/8th of the headphone impedance? That's what i read here: https://nwavguy.blogspot.com.au/2011/02/headphone-amp-impedance.html

Don't confuse an amp's output impedance with its output power at various input impedances of headphones. I'll give you an example using the Magni 2's specs.

http://www.schiit.com/products/magni-2

output impedance: less than 0.2 ohms
maximum output power at 32 ohms: 1.2 W RMS per channel
maximum output power at 300 ohms: 260 mW RMS per channel

 

[Barncore]

Don't confuse an amp's output impedance with its output power at various input impedances of headphones. I'll give you an example using the Magni 2's specs.

http://www.schiit.com/products/magni-2

output impedance: less than 0.2 ohms
maximum output power at 32 ohms: 1.2 W RMS per channel
maximum output power at 300 ohms: 260 mW RMS per channel

I think that is the information i was missing in regards to amps and compatibility with various headphones.

So some amps are able to drive all kinds of different headphones with different impedances? What kind of information do i need to look for when trying to figure out if that amp is a good match for a specific type of headphone? Sounds like it's more than just a matter of the 1/8th impedance thing.

The headphones i'm looking at are AKG 700 series, Sennheiser HD600's and Beyerdynamic DT880's. Which cheap amps are most compatible with them? I.e. amps under $100 that can plug into a computer.

Honestly getting to a point where i almost don't even want to get headphones anymore because of all the complications that needing the right amp brings. I can't afford it at all but if it's absolutely necessary then i will have to reconsider. Are the differences even that noticeable? Or is it very subtle nuances that people who spend thousands of dollars on this stuff obsess over? Am i really losing that much quality if i save the money?

 

[Music Alchemist]

I think that is the information i was missing in regards to amps and compatibility with various headphones.

So some amps are able to drive all kinds of different headphones with different impedances? What kind of information do i need to look for when trying to figure out if that amp is a good match for a specific type of headphone? Sounds like it's more than just a matter of the 1/8th impedance thing.

The headphones i'm looking at are AKG 700 series, Sennheiser HD600's and Beyerdynamic DT880's. Which cheap amps are most compatible with them? I.e. amps under $100 that can plug into a computer.

Honestly getting to a point where i almost don't even want to get headphones anymore because of all the complications that needing the right amp brings. I can't afford it at all but if it's absolutely necessary then i will have to reconsider. Are the differences even that noticeable? Or is it very subtle nuances that people who spend thousands of dollars on this stuff obsess over? Am i really losing that much quality if i save the money?

You can learn about driving headphones here: http://apexhifi.com/specs.html

For $99 I'd recommend the Schiit Magni 2 I mentioned. It can drive nearly all headphones.

If you're going to connect the amp to a computer's headphone output, you'd need a 3.5 mm to dual RCA cable. (I have this one.)

You may (or may not) get better sound with a dedicated DAC. It's something to consider for the future.

The differences you can hear depend on many factors, such as the headphones, how loud you listen, the music, your ears, and so on. Some headphones may not sound any better with an amp, while others can improve substantially. When comparing, be sure to volume match so you're not just having a "louder sounds better" experience.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I think that is the information i was missing in regards to amps and compatibility with various headphones.

So some amps are able to drive all kinds of different headphones with different impedances? What kind of information do i need to look for when trying to figure out if that amp is a good match for a specific type of headphone? Sounds like it's more than just a matter of the 1/8th impedance thing.

Low output impedance. If that's 2ohms or less you're practically in the clear - not a lot of headphones have low enough impedance to be a problem with that.

Past that it's a matter of how much power the amp can kick out and at what distortion and noise levels. Very generally an amp that can pick send out near 1w (1000mW) per channel at 32ohms would be enough for anything but the lowest sensitivity planars or 600ohm headphones other than the Tesla series Beyers (ie 600ohm K240 has significantly lower sensitivity) since the power drops as the impedance goes higher. It won't be the same rate for every amp however.

Note that OTL tube amps are specifically designed to deliver more power at 300ohms than at 32ohms, so lower sensitivity, low impedance headphones don't go with these.

The headphones i'm looking at are AKG 700 series, Sennheiser HD600's and Beyerdynamic DT880's. Which cheap amps are most compatible with them? I.e. amps under $100 that can plug into a computer.

Compatible in terms of "not bad performance" - Ibasso D-Zero MkII. Note that it will be noticeably less loud more more distorted on the K7xx due to their lower efficiency.

Compatible as in "you have to spend waaaaaaay more to beat this" - Pangea HP101. Has enough power to get the HD600 adn DT880 to the point where pouring more power into it will barely get any louder (due to how watts, sensitivity, and actual dB work - ie the graph is not linear). Less so on the K7xx but not all that bad. People get spooked from buying it because 1) it's not popular and 2) many of hte Amazon reviews have low ratings but some of the fault is on the reviewer, like the guy who left the amp in his closet without running it for months, then when he does, finds out it's DOA, he's past the warranty period but puts a 1-star rating anyway.

Honestly getting to a point where i almost don't even want to get headphones anymore because of all the complications that needing the right amp brings. I can't afford it at all but if it's absolutely necessary then i will have to reconsider. Are the differences even that noticeable? Or is it very subtle nuances that people who spend thousands of dollars on this stuff obsess over? Am i really losing that much quality if i save the money?

Partly because of the wide impedance range of headphones. Past that there are reasons why less expensive HPamps and DAC-HPamps like the Magni-Modi combo, O2-ODAC, etc are popular: they don't have impedance issues and will run practically anything well enough. Past that you're paying for slightly less distortion than the Magni or more power than the O2 (but hopefully comparably low noise and distortion), or in the case of AudioGD (and Schiit's Uber and other amp and DAC lines), connectivity options - like multiple digital inputs and preamp outputs.