[OmidelF]

so i wanted to buy a HD800 and people suggested that i should get an amp or a better sound card than my motherboard's ( asus maximus viii hero)
 
but which one is better ? i personally don't like amp's because the last amp that i had broke my denon d2000 ( since i made the music louder than it can handle)
 
 
 
 
for example what is the difference between these 2 : 
Schiit Valhalla2 ( amp ) and Asus Xonar STX 2 soundcard
 
 
if i get the asus xonar is it enough to use the HD800 the way its meant to be used ?
 


 

 

[SeaWo|f]

Your onboard is probably not not going to be that different from what you will get out of a sound card, and both can generate enough power for the HD800. Although the card you mentioned does let you switch opamp chips so you might be able to find one you like more than what you have on your mobo. A stand alone amp should give you better sound in many different respects, but every ones ears are different. As for you amp causing your previous headphones to fail, that was YOU not the amp.

 

[OmidelF]

  Your onboard is probably not not going to be that different from what you will get out of a sound card, and both can generate enough power for the HD800. Although the card you mentioned does let you switch opamp chips so you might be able to find one you like more than what you have on your mobo. A stand alone amp should give you better sound in many different respects, but every ones ears are different. As for you amp causing your previous headphones to fail, that was YOU not the amp.

so what you're saying is that getting an amp is better than getting another sound card right ?
 
and what amp you suggest i should get ?

 

[SeaWo|f]

IMO it would be but sound quality is completely subjective. I just would not go from a quality asus onboard to an asus card as there probably isnt much difference. Schiit makes a good product and should pair well with an HD800 as they tune their products using the hd800 as one of their reference headphones. IDK which would go best though. The hd800 has a treble that people find difficult so your mention of the valhalla 2 is probably a good choice. OLT tube amps can do a good job of smoothing things out up top. 
 
Some HD800 owners could offer good guidance. Check out what people are liking on the hd800 thread.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmidelF /img/forum/go_quote.gif

so i wanted to buy a HD800 and people suggested that i should get an amp or a better sound card than my motherboard's ( asus maximus viii hero)

 

but which one is better?

 

Amplifier - a circuit, whether on its own or part of a multi-function device, amplifies a signal to drive a transducer, ie, a headphone or speaker. Technically speaking any kind of headphone output port has some kind of amplifier behind it, it's just a question of whether that circuit as well as the headphone that will be plugged in are comparable to, say, a 3cyl engine for a Tata or a twin-turbo V10 designed in Ingolstadt that will go into an R8 or a Lambo.

 

Note that headphones (and to a much lesser extent, speakers) vary in many ways, primarily nominal impedance and sensitivity+efficiency (plus some can have unstable impedance, and swing higher or lower depending on the frequency playing), and amplifiers deliver power best into a relatively narrow range. That said, generally higher impedance contributes to sensitivity, so in some cases even if an amplifier delivers less power at 300ohms, it won't be unusual that a 300ohm headphone can still go louder than some 50-ohm headphone getting even more power from the same amplifier.

 

Soundcard - has a DSP chip - digital signal processor - with varying feature sets; also has a DAC to convert that signal to analogue; and in most cases an amplifier designed to drive some headphones.

 

In your case, your motherboard has a DSP chip, doesn't it? The one that does virtual surround and a bunch of other processing tricks? In that case you don't need a soundcard. If I was in your situation what I'd do is contact Asus and check if the DSP tricks can be applied to the audio signal leaving its optical output, and if it does, then get a good DAC+Headphone amp in a single box to simplify everything. You can drive the headphone with cleaner power from a standalone amp, which also gives you more power and headroom in case you might be able to use it.

 

In any case I'd be more worried about your choice of headphone. Many people recommend the HD800 for its imaging capabilities, but it's a wide open headphone design, so if your PC makes any noises above ambient you will likely hear the fans and then need to set the volume louder, which means more distortion so you need to spend on a DAC-HPamp with cleaner output, but set it loud enough for long enough and you'll damage your hearing. A Beyerdynamic T5P has drivers that relative to your ears are angled, just like the HD800, but more importantly it has a closed back design. It's also a high efficiency but low imepdance design, so even your motherboard likely won't be anywhere near audible distortion levels when driving it (unless you have noise issues due to the power supply or grounding or another sort of interference), and you might also spare your hearing.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmidelF /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

for example what is the difference between these 2 : 

Schiit Valhalla2 ( amp ) and Asus Xonar STX 2 soundcard

 

if i get the asus xonar is it enough to use the HD800 the way its meant to be used ?

 

Valhala2 is an output transformerless vacuum tube amplifier, meaning it's meant to drive higher impedances - the transformer in the output stage is ditched in such designs primarily to keep costs down as since you need a good circuit design as well as good transformers - but this comes at the cost of properly driving lower impedance loads. Schiit claims the Valhalla2 doesn't suffer as much though.

 

The STX2 by contrast has all the features I outlined above, but obviously, no vacuum tubes, and it has to use the same PSU that runs your CPU, GPU, fans, and it has its own fan, plus the HDDs, etc.

 

As much as I don't think the distortion at 300ohms off a soundcard won't be too bad (unless of course you think about why you wouldn't feed a headphone you spent that much money on the cleanest signal you can get), I'd be more concerned about a wide open back headphone and the noise of your PC's cooling system, unless you're confident about how quiet it is.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmidelF /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

i personally don't like amp's because the last amp that i had broke my denon d2000 ( since i made the music louder than it can handle)

 

An amplifier can destroy whatever it's driving in two ways. The more common one is if the amp is being driven hard and you're clipping the signal - ie, it can't deliver the dynamic range at that very loud output level - and stresses the speaker suspension design. The other is if you actually applied too much power and forced the driver to go past what its suspension is capable of. In either case extreme levels of bass can exacerbate the effects.

 

The first scenario happens when you have no idea what distortion sounds like. The second happens when...oh, wait, no, it doesn't really happen, because if you've been playing any reasonably efficient transducer to a level that forces the driver to go over its limits without the amp clipping, that would mean you used an extremely powerful amplifier, and you would have blown your eardrums. Outside of headphones, this happens without damaging ear drums - like the idiots who put coins on the roof of their cars, grab the receiver remote, and then play 30hz sinewave just to watch the subwoofer vibrate the metal enough to make jumping beans out of those coins.

So basically, if you don't know what distortion sounds like anyway, might as well just get any headphone and listen to it and be satisfied with whatever is driving it as long as it's loud enough, or you damaged your hearing already in which case a very clean amp isn't really necessary.

 

[OmidelF]

 

 

Amplifier - a circuit, whether on its own or part of a multi-function device, amplifies a signal to drive a transducer, ie, a headphone or speaker. Technically speaking any kind of headphone output port has some kind of amplifier behind it, it's just a question of whether that circuit as well as the headphone that will be plugged in are comparable to, say, a 3cyl engine for a Tata or a twin-turbo V10 designed in Ingolstadt that will go into an R8 or a Lambo.

 

Note that headphones (and to a much lesser extent, speakers) vary in many ways, primarily nominal impedance and sensitivity+efficiency (plus some can have unstable impedance, and swing higher or lower depending on the frequency playing), and amplifiers deliver power best into a relatively narrow range. That said, generally higher impedance contributes to sensitivity, so in some cases even if an amplifier delivers less power at 300ohms, it won't be unusual that a 300ohm headphone can still go louder than some 50-ohm headphone getting even more power from the same amplifier.

 

Soundcard - has a DSP chip - digital signal processor - with varying feature sets; also has a DAC to convert that signal to analogue; and in most cases an amplifier designed to drive some headphones.

 

In your case, your motherboard has a DSP chip, doesn't it? The one that does virtual surround and a bunch of other processing tricks? In that case you don't need a soundcard. If I was in your situation what I'd do is contact Asus and check if the DSP tricks can be applied to the audio signal leaving its optical output, and if it does, then get a good DAC+Headphone amp in a single box to simplify everything. You can drive the headphone with cleaner power from a standalone amp, which also gives you more power and headroom in case you might be able to use it.

 

In any case I'd be more worried about your choice of headphone. Many people recommend the HD800 for its imaging capabilities, but it's a wide open headphone design, so if your PC makes any noises above ambient you will likely hear the fans and then need to set the volume louder, which means more distortion so you need to spend on a DAC-HPamp with cleaner output, but set it loud enough for long enough and you'll damage your hearing. A Beyerdynamic T5P has drivers that relative to your ears are angled, just like the HD800, but more importantly it has a closed back design. It's also a high efficiency but low imepdance design, so even your motherboard likely won't be anywhere near audible distortion levels when driving it (unless you have noise issues due to the power supply or grounding or another sort of interference), and you might also spare your hearing.

 

 

 

 

Valhala2 is an output transformerless vacuum tube amplifier, meaning it's meant to drive higher impedances - the transformer in the output stage is ditched in such designs primarily to keep costs down as since you need a good circuit design as well as good transformers - but this comes at the cost of properly driving lower impedance loads. Schiit claims the Valhalla2 doesn't suffer as much though.

 

The STX2 by contrast has all the features I outlined above, but obviously, no vacuum tubes, and it has to use the same PSU that runs your CPU, GPU, fans, and it has its own fan, plus the HDDs, etc.

 

As much as I don't think the distortion at 300ohms off a soundcard won't be too bad (unless of course you think about why you wouldn't feed a headphone you spent that much money on the cleanest signal you can get), I'd be more concerned about a wide open back headphone and the noise of your PC's cooling system, unless you're confident about how quiet it is.

 

 

 

An amplifier can destroy whatever it's driving in two ways. The more common one is if the amp is being driven hard and you're clipping the signal - ie, it can't deliver the dynamic range at that very loud output level - and stresses the speaker suspension design. The other is if you actually applied too much power and forced the driver to go past what its suspension is capable of. In either case extreme levels of bass can exacerbate the effects.

 

The first scenario happens when you have no idea what distortion sounds like. The second happens when...oh, wait, no, it doesn't really happen, because if you've been playing any reasonably efficient transducer to a level that forces the driver to go over its limits without the amp clipping, that would mean you used an extremely powerful amplifier, and you would have blown your eardrums. Outside of headphones, this happens without damaging ear drums - like the idiots who put coins on the roof of their cars, grab the receiver remote, and then play 30hz sinewave just to watch the subwoofer vibrate the metal enough to make jumping beans out of those coins.

So basically, if you don't know what distortion sounds like anyway, might as well just get any headphone and listen to it and be satisfied with whatever is driving it as long as it's loud enough, or you damaged your hearing already in which case a very clean amp isn't really necessary.

 
 
 
 
thank you for your replay but 3 questions 
1. so is Beyerdynamic T5p better or equal to HD800 for someone who just wants a great sound quality while listening to music ? 
2. and i should get a amp for Beyerdynamic T5p too right ? in that case , what amp do you suggest i use ?  also i already have a FiiO e10 , is this amp enough for this headphone or i should buy a better amp ?
3.what is the overall difference between them ? like for example if you yourself play a pop music or a hip hop music with both of them , which one do you prefer ?

 

[PurpleAngel]

  So i wanted to buy a HD800 and people suggested that i should get an amp or a better sound card than my motherboard's (Asus Maximus viii hero)
but which one is better ? i personally don't like amp's because the last amp that I had broke my Denon D2000 (since i made the music louder than it can handle)
for example what is the difference between these 2 : 
Schiit Valhalla2 ( amp ) and Asus Xonar STX 2 soundcard
If i get the Asus Xonar is it enough to use the HD800 the way its meant to be used ?

 
If your willing to budget that much for headphone, might as well go for the external DAC/amp.
Internal sound card (the analog part) can pick up electrical noise generated inside the computer case.
If you need some of the features of a sound card, get a lower costing sound card and connect the external DAC/amp to the sound card's S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) port.
The S/PDIF port is digital, so would not pick up any electrical noise that might be generated from inside the computer case.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  thank you for your replay but 3 questions 
1. so is Beyerdynamic T5p better or equal to HD800 for someone who just wants a great sound quality while listening to music ? 
2. and i should get a amp for Beyerdynamic T5p too right ? in that case , what amp do you suggest i use ?  also i already have a FiiO e10 , is this amp enough for this headphone or i should buy a better amp ?
3.what is the overall difference between them ? like for example if you yourself play a pop music or a hip hop music with both of them , which one do you prefer ?

 
My two cents
The 32-Ohm Beyer T5p is designed to be easily driven by portable audio products (smart phone, iPod, DAP, mp3 player, etc).
So the FiiO E10K can easily drive the T5p.
But if your willing to budget for a better (more powerful) external DAC/amp, like the $400 for an Audio-GD NFB-11.
(I use the discontinued NFB-15)
Then check out the ($600) 250-Ohm Beyer DT-1770 Pro, it uses the newer 2.0 Tesla technology
http://north-america.beyerdynamic.com/shop/dt-1770-pro.html
Not sure what the difference is between the original Tesla technology and the newer Tesla 2.0, but hopefully it means it's some how better.
Currently my preferred headphone is the Beyerdynamic T70, great clarity.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmidelF /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

1. so is Beyerdynamic T5p better or equal to HD800 for someone who just wants a great sound quality while listening to music ? 

 

They're generally similar enough, but given the disparity in sensitivity as well as their nominal impedance, some amps may distort a bit more (and not all amps distort the same way) with one more than the other. Like I said generally, and apart from using a mobile device, high sensitivity, high impedance is easier to deal with than low sensitivity, low impedance, but in this case the T5P is high sensitivity, low impedance, so it would be at where most amps deliver their power best and yet won't require as much.

 

Apart from that the other important advantage of the T5P is again that it's a closed cup headphone design, whereas the HD800 is wide open. The HD800 will make your PC's cooling system more audible compared to how the T5P's closed cup blocks more of that noise. That means not only will you need more power at high impedance, but you will crank it up more just to get over that noise floor, and then at that point you get more distortion as well as greater risk of hearing damage. The T5P's impedance won't tax just about anything hooked up to it and then its high sensitivity will make use of less power, add to that how much less noise gets through, and it's a safer bet especially when you use a fullsize computer, which again I'm assuming might not have a very quiet cooling system.

 

 
3.what is the overall difference between them ? like for example if you yourself play a pop music or a hip hop music with both of them , which one do you prefer ?

 

Again, they're similar enough, but if you ask me I prefer the HD800. However, and again, I use a smartphone set to Airplane Mode as a music server - which means no intake fans, no GPU cooler fans, no CPU cooler fan, no exhaust fan, no top exhaust radiator fan, no power supply fan, etc - and I listen late at night. My noise floor is a lot lower than what you would encounter. Since the T5P isn't too far off what the HD800 sounds like, and you are dealing with a higher noise floor, you might as well block off a chunk of the computer's noise.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmidelF /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

2. and i should get a amp for Beyerdynamic T5p too right ? in that case , what amp do you suggest i use ? 

 

I've basically explained in my previous post and at the beginning of this one that basically you will have a very low risk of getting within easily audible distortion range with just your motherboard if you use the T5P....

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmidelF /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

also i already have a FiiO e10 , is this amp enough for this headphone or i should buy a better amp ?

 

That will hook up to the mobo via USB, which will bypass the motherboard's audio section, which has an ESS9023 DAC, on/off pop protection, auto impedance sensor (that probably just adjusts the gain, but it's useful considering the low impedance, high sensitivity of the T5P, as normally computer gear manufacturers associate high gain for high impedance to compensate for lower power output), and Sonic Stage II that has a virtual surround simulator for games.

 

Also the mobo has 2v rms (ie, continuous; it has more in reserve for dynamic range, but it is not stated how much more), but that's plenty enough for a Tesla series headphone at 32ohms unless there's a problem with very low gain.

 

[Adamsolympia]

  so i wanted to buy a HD800 and people suggested that i should get an amp or a better sound card than my motherboard's ( asus maximus viii hero)
 
but which one is better ? i personally don't like amp's because the last amp that i had broke my denon d2000 ( since i made the music louder than it can handle)
 
 
 
 
for example what is the difference between these 2 : 
Schiit Valhalla2 ( amp ) and Asus Xonar STX 2 soundcard
 
 
if i get the asus xonar is it enough to use the HD800 the way its meant to be used ?
 


 

 
 

   
If your willing to budget that much for headphone, might as well go for the external DAC/amp.
Internal sound card (the analog part) can pick up electrical noise generated inside the computer case.
If you need some of the features of a sound card, get a lower costing sound card and connect the external DAC/amp to the sound card's S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) port.
The S/PDIF port is digital, so would not pick up any electrical noise that might be generated from inside the computer case.

 
I have the Asus Xonar Essence ST and never had any noise on it .. quiet as a mouse. I think it has very good shielding.
 
My Schiit Fulla, on the other hand, was EXTREMELY noisy -- I had to constantly reposition it to get rid of the buzz/noise .. The audio quality was amazing though and did a great job driving my HD600 until I got my Vali 2.