[CaseJ]

Hey guys,
Well i know im a newb to guitars (only been playing 5 months) and i didn't want to high-jack Jahn's thread so i figured ide ask everyone. What is it about old guitars that makes them so expensive? Do they sound better? I noticed people talk about changing out different parts in their guitars for old one and im just curious why.

 

[qpoiz]

i know one reason. If its regarding an electric guitar, pick-ups were hand-wound back in the day. More attention was paid to these as they were not mass produced and therefore were of better quality.

I also believe wood sounds better as it ages.

 

[caterpillar_36]

From what I know about violins, the disadvantage to buying a new wooden instrument is that you don't know exactly *how* the wood will change over time.

 

[tjkurita]

From what I understand, old acoustic guitars built out of solid wood sound better than new acoustic guitars because wood is an organic material that forms over time. The sap in the wood crystalizes and becomes stiffer, which gives the guitar a more powerful, articulate sound. At the same time, continued playing loosens up the guitar, making it more responsive to a lighter touch. Also, the glue used to put the guitar together solidifies and makes the guitar resonate better. Even the finish hardening over time can have a positive effect on the tone. Older guitars also have fewer "wolf notes." These are notes that resonate in the body cavity and can cause strange, dead tone. For example, I have had a couple of OM size guitars that resonate at the "G" frequency. And up and down the fingerboard, a number of the "Gs" were either dead, too boosted or otherwise out of balance from the rest of the notes. They were both Collings guitars costing more than $3K. Needless to say I got rid of them and got a 15 year old Steve Andersen OM that does not have any wolf notes because it used to be owned by Scott Nygaard, who played it and broke it in like crazy. I have owned guitars of various ages. From weeks off the line to 50 years old. The older guitars have a very distinct "dry" sound that is more powerful, but also more sensitive and subtle. That is, it sounds better played soft and it can be pushed further before it the tone gets muddy. Bass gets tighter, highs get sweeter, similar to headphone burn-in but much more noticeable.

I don't know anything about the effects of age on electrics. If you used the exact same pickups, cables and amps, I'm not sure you could tell the difference between a 1980 Les Paul and a 2007 Les Paul. But I'm not sure.

But you sure as hell can tell the difference between a solid wood acoustic that has been played for 27 years and one that just came off the line.

 

[Davesrose]

I don't think it's really about how the wood ages. It's not quite like a bottle of wine that keeps getting better. There might be some settling in with a "virgin" guitar, but generally, the more expensive an instrument is, the more craftsmanship it has.

We don't know what a Stradivarius sounded like back in the 18th century. But they must have been pretty sweet sounding back then too....otherwise they wouldn't have been cared for. To this day, people are still studying them to figure out how they were built.

Likewise, my more expensive handmade guitar (that was built about 7 years ago) sounds better then my grandfather's old handmade Martin guitar. For a Martin, it is really nice....but just because the wood is so much older, does not inherently make it sound better then my guitar.

 

[Jahn]

It really does depend on the guitar, even within the same make and model. For instance, Tacoma is making some great Guild guitars right now that are right there with the 60's Hoboken-era Guilds, and are priced around the same as the ones on the used market, so it's a real tossup which to pick.

On the other hand, a Brazilian Pre-War Martin D-28, if structurally sound and set up right, will blow the barn doors off a modern HD-28. But then it's like 25 thousand dollars more, so it better!

 

[GAD]

With electric guitars, the older ones were usually made in the US and the newer ones are often made elsewhere. Getting one of the older US-made ones is a big deal because they were made with care while the new ones are mass produced.

That's a generalization, but you get the idea. Other posters have made some good points too.

Pickups do age. Some age well, others age poorly. Depending on what you're playing, this can be a big deal.

If you want a cool read, check out Steve Vai's site. He has a story on there about sending an engineer back to an arena to search through the trash because he threw away a "bad" pickup.

GAD

 

[Sherwood]

I own some old instruments, and I'm going to come right out and say it: there's a lot of cache' in an old instrument, because you can't just roll into a guitar center and buy it. One needs to look for an old guitar, and often times wait awhile before the right thing comes along.

Fact is, especially with electrics, age has ups and downs. Classic guitar tone was created with classic guitars, and it's harder to duplicate the sound with modern guitars than it is to just buy old ones. However, pickups lose their magnetic force, so they don't sound the same today as they did twenty years ago. Moreover, when classic guitar tone was being created, it was being created on new guitars. Most real professionals today also play new instruments, mostly because they're reliable, and replaceable should something break.

Many guitars are still handmade today, but some are mass produced. Be careful not to attribute "mass-produced" to "lower quality". Machines have far more exacting tolerances than humans, and if calibrated correctly should work wonderfully. Hand made doesn't really mean some wizened old luthier in a brown smock is painstakingly sanding and fine tuning your instrument in a dimly lit workshop with woodwork hanging from the ceiling. It usually means minimum-wage labor is lined up and performing the same repetitive task 8 hours a day, caring little for the finished product.

There are some old guitars that have been well cared for and play beautifully, and there are some new guitars that have truly been personally built by a knowledgeable luthier. In both cases, these guitars are expensive and hard to come by. New or old, you get what you pay for. If you're going to be using the instrument a lot, it's really best to go new or buy only from someone you personally know and trust.

 

[musicmind]

I havent played any true vintage intruments but I have also wondered at their merit and desirability.
I think there are a number of reason typically given, and my feeling is that today, a vintage sounding electric guitar can be made if one is willing to pay a little extra/or the manufacturer has the skills and materials to do so.
Aging of wood making it drier and more resonant? Top brands and guitar models use select wood which is also "aged" in special ovens to replicate this process. Obviously true acoustic instruments would be more greatly affected.

Various alloys and ceramics used in pickup magnet manufacturing can also give an aged magnet sound to mellow out the pickups such as the various alnico magnets.
As for the vintage instruments themselves, as already pointed out, not all vintage instruments (ie year of manufacture) are equally sought after. The 1950's era Fenders and Gibsons are by far the most sought after AFAIK. I think there could perhaps be some luthier skills to attribute for this (eg, the CBS-era Fenders were not highly regarded), and I think a fair amount of it is just antique prestige value of the instrument.

In the case of the new Eric Johnson signature strat, which is praised for its vintage-like sound based on a 1957 strat Eric plays, it is largely attributed to its select grade lightweight alder and the nitrocellulose finish on the body and neck. Nitrocellulose finish on Fenders were more common in the early period and being a thinner porous coating material, it allowed the guitar to retain more of its natural resonant/harmonic qualities, more so that the thicker and durable polyurethane finishes used in most guitars today. Earlier Fenders also had thicker (smaller radius) necks, which add to the tone. Todays Fenders have different radii necks available and I dont think the smaller radius ones are as popular because of playing difficulty.

Today, the original luthiers from Gibson who did not wish to move from their original Kalamazoo, Michigan location, continue to build guitars under the Heritage brand, which are arguably of an higher quality than instruments that Gibson is making today.

So I think the vintage guitar desirablity is a combination of reasons, but I think a modern instrument can be made with a vintage tone if the right materials and lutheiring skills are used IMHO.

 

[chadbang]

I won't even bring up the subject of giving a guitar a "relic" treatment to make it look like an old guitar, mainly because older looking guitars have a vibe. However, I did relic the strat I built. Mainly to cover all the mistakes I made!

 

[CaseJ]

Thanks a lot everyone you answered some of my questions.
Just by chance how does one go about looking to tweak their guitar? I had a friend play my guitar whom has a martin with "tweaks" and he complained about my gibson dicing up his fingers but we both use metal strings.

 

[musicmind]

Your strings are probably a thicker guage than your friend has on his guitar.
That, combined with a higher action (ie, your strings being higher off the fretboard) could be what made your friend complain.

I would recommend you have a guitar tech do the setup if you arent familiar with how to do it yet, especially on an acoustic. For how to service and tweak your guitar, check out Dan Erlewine's book and videos.

 

[Exit Pupil]

some famous luthiers such as Smallman, may make 6-12 guitars per year. thats it. these instruments are never to be confused with any gibson et.al. these instruments are generally priced in the obscene range from new, and go up from there, due to the workmanship, design and phenomenal man hours invested in each one.

many consider John Williams to be the preeminent classical guitarist of our time. check him out playing Asturias on a Greg Smallman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEfFbuT3I6A

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

What is good about old guitars?

Part of the reason is that often the wood used in older guitars was better quality "old growth" with tighter rings and a better suited cell density ( for sound/resonance). These were trees that grew naturally and slowly in dense forests and were hundreds of years old. Quality wood like that is getting scarcer all the time, either being already used up or protected by environmental laws. The alder, spruce, mahogany, or whatever trees they use today, aren't the same as the larger, original old growth trees. The scarcity of highest quality wood is also why you're seeing more and more guitars built out of strange substitute exotic woods now days. (like Bubinga for example) In many cases, while still very good, these are often less expensive substitutes for the ideal rosewoods etc.

About 10 years ago, there was a couple of news items running about people starting to "mine" old growth logs which had sunk to the bottom of lakes and rivers years and years ago during their voyage from forest to mill. Buried in silt, in the right conditions, some of these ancient logs have been preserved under water, and are worth tens of thousands of dollars each. The highest quality modern-made musical instruments, from guitars to violins to pianos are being made with this wood. It might be mostly gone by now as well.

 

[mrarroyo]

I will give you a bit of a trick for a new guitar to sound better. Set it up in front of one of your stereo speakers. Then when you are not playing it have the stereo play music. The vibration of the music will resonate the wood in the guitar and help to "break it in".

The music does not have to be loud and this works best of acoustic guitars with solid tops.