What is a good volume pot or passive preamp that does not get unbalanced at low levels (or has 2 independent controls that normally turn together)?
Nov 21, 2015 at 12:16 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 13

manywelps

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I listen to music very quietly most of the time.
 
What is a good volume pot or passive preamp that does not get unbalanced at low levels (or has 2 independent controls that normally turn together (like a STAX SRM-1 MK2))?
 
I'll make the enclosure myself unless there's already good ones.
 
I've gotten a SYS, and it unbalances fast, Emotiva, SB control pot, even the KGSS pot unbalances fast.  Loved the SRM-1's, because a tiny adjustment would keep it balanced all the way down?
 
So basically something to sit inline between the DAC and Amp near my hand would be ideal.
 
Stepped?  Maybe, don't care as long as it has enough granularity on the quiet end.
 
(I operated under the belief that expensive cables and pots don't sound better unless something is physically wrong with them, so please operate with that assumption)
 
Nov 21, 2015 at 12:31 AM Post #2 of 13
How about a fixed attenuator and a switch to turn it on and off in addition to your existing volume control?
 
What would be my first choice for a volume control would be the PGA2311/PGA4311, but that does require its own power supply which you don't want.
 
Nov 21, 2015 at 1:03 AM Post #3 of 13
Have you read my Notes on Audio Attenuators?
 
If even high-end attenuators are giving audible imbalances in your system, that's a pretty good indicator that the overall system gain is too high.  Not only will reducing the system gain allow you to turn the volume controls up into their better-matched upper range, it may reduce the apparent noise in the system.
 
Ideally, you'd do this by reducing the gain in the active stage(s). Some amplifiers and such have gain adjustments for this very purpose. Others can be adjusted, possibly with a soldering iron. And that's why the DIY forum is here. :)
 
If you cannot fix it in the active stages, adding a passive attenuator (a.k.a. a "pad") to one of the stages will work. But, this means you're amplifying noise unnecessarily and then pushing it back down below the audible floor, which is not as good as leaving it below the audible floor from the start.
 
There may be pre-made audio pads in RCA cable form, or you could just make one. The resistors should be able to squeeze into some of the larger shells used by DIY cable makers.
 
Nov 21, 2015 at 2:53 AM Post #4 of 13
  How about a fixed attenuator and a switch to turn it on and off in addition to your existing volume control?

How is this better than a passive one?
 

Yes
 
 
If even high-end attenuators are giving audible imbalances in your system, that's a pretty good indicator that the overall system gain is too high.  Not only will reducing the system gain allow you to turn the volume controls up into their better-matched upper range, it may reduce the apparent noise in the system.
 
Ideally, you'd do this by reducing the gain in the active stage(s). Some amplifiers and such have gain adjustments for this very purpose. Others can be adjusted, possibly with a soldering iron. And that's why the DIY forum is here. :)
 
If you cannot fix it in the active stages, adding a passive attenuator (a.k.a. a "pad") to one of the stages will work. But, this means you're amplifying noise unnecessarily and then pushing it back down below the audible floor, which is not as good as leaving it below the audible floor from the start.
 
There may be pre-made audio pads in RCA cable form, or you could just make one. The resistors should be able to squeeze into some of the larger shells used by DIY cable makers.

 
I don't have high end attenuators, because I don't know enough about them to select them.  Also passive attenuators are so friggin simple, that I can build one trivially.
 
Also, as I mentioned with the SRM-1 Example, a dual channel dial (that turns together if separate forces are not applied) can let me do the channel matching manually... so... either way.
 
Do you have suggestions for prebuilt ones, or pots that I'd just throw in an enclosure?
 
My current Amp is a KGSS, and it doesn't have gain control.
 
Edit: I just looked up what the stax had, and it's a concentric pot.
 
Nov 21, 2015 at 7:38 PM Post #6 of 13
  A fixed attenuator *is* passive. Really just a fancy name for a voltage divider.

Oh right, I wasn't thinking.
 
I have fixed attenuators, I'd rather not have to dick with more than one control for volume.
 
I use it with my computer and deal with a lot of sound sources at different levels, so I'd rather just make an attenuator box.
 
With that said, does anyone have suggestions for (Below $200 please):
 
1) Good stepped pots (that have high granularity, especially at low levels)
 
2) Good dual concentric pots
 
3) Good pots that do not unbalance at low levels
 
(And perhaps a basic guide for making an enclosure properly, as well as somewhere that sells good RCA and 1/4" jacks(As long as I'm building it, may as well add a monitor port))
 
Nov 21, 2015 at 7:48 PM Post #7 of 13
Perhaps this .
 
https://emotiva.com/products/electronics/control-freak
 
Nov 21, 2015 at 10:17 PM Post #9 of 13
  I don't have high end attenuators

 
According to its product page, the KGSS uses a pair of DACT stepped attenuators. That's about as high-end as things get without getting into audiophoolery.
 
DACT claims 0.05 dB tracking accuracy. You're claiming that even that is not good enough? ("...even the KGSS pot unbalances fast...")
 
My current Amp is a KGSS, and it doesn't have gain control. 

 
As I hinted above, you may be able to obtain the schematic and then modify its internals to lower its gain.
 
No, don't ask me, I've never built one. Take it up as a separate thread.
 
Good stepped pots (that have high granularity, especially at low levels) 

 
I suspect you're confusing two separate concepts here.
 
There are "stepped" potentiometers, but they're just regular pots with a ball-bearing based click feature that makes it harder to hit certain points along the continuous resistance range inside the pot. A stepped pot is only valuable when you need to count clicks in order to hit some predetermined point. They're popular in sound reinforcement products, for example.
 
Consumer equipment with clicky volume knobs are typically using some kind of rotary encoder, which in turn drives a digital pot. You could drive the PGA2311 mentioned above that way.
 
Then there are stepped attenuators, which are entirely different things from potentiometers. They use discrete resistors instead of a continuous track of resistive material, so that they have jumps in attenuation like a digipot, but they're purely passive, like a potentiometer. They're just a many-position rotary switch with resistors in between each switching position. There are subtleties in SA design, but that's the essence of it.
 
All attenuators have some amount of tracking error. It's purely a fact of the way they work. Every resistor has some error in it, so the longer the resistance string, the greater the potential error. It is a random walk type of phenomenon.
 
The only reason stepped attenuators tend to be better than potentiometers is that you can hand-match the resistances at each step, reducing the channel mismatch at each stage; but, errors still build up over the string! With a pot, you have a stripe of resistive material with a continuous series of errors, so that short of using a process like laser-trimming, the random-walk errors will build up in individually unpredictable ways.
 
I'm not aware of any laser-trimmed commercial audio potentiometers.
 
There are some very expensive rheostats and linear pots, but those are expensive because they're used in industrial machinery that has to work reliably in harsh environments for decades.
 
Today, the best solution I know of for passive attenuation with low tracking error is the stepped attenuator, and you're telling us that even well-executed examples of that technology aren't good enough for you.
 
Good dual concentric pots 

 
Just say "stereo audio pot." Every stereo pot is "concentric." That term just means that one control shaft moves both pots at the same time.
 
The best commercially-available stereo audio pot I'm aware of is the ALPS RK27, and as my audio attenuator article's data shows, it's still not as good as the DACT SAs at low levels.
 
Good pots that do not unbalance at low levels 

 
As I've said, there's basically no such thing. Pots are not meant to be used that way. It's like asking for a bicycle that doesn't tip over when you ride at low speeds. Just as you must get a bike moving at a certain minimum speed for stability, you should be running pots up in their well-matched ranges.
 
And perhaps a basic guide for making an enclosure properly 

 
Something like this?
 
somewhere that sells good RCA and 1/4" jacks 

 
Right at the top of this forum is a link to a list of articles answering standard questions like this. These two articles seem like what you're after:
 
  http://www.head-fi.org/a/do-it-yourself-links
  http://www.head-fi.org/a/diy-cable-info-and-resources
 
As long as I'm building it, may as well add a monitor port 

 
Bad idea.
 
First off, passive attenuator boxes are already problematic from an impedance matching standpoint. You have to know the output impedance of the driving stage, its current handling capability, and the input impedance of the driven stage to properly design it. This is why virtually every preamp in existence is active, and "passive preamps" are something you generally only see from the audiophool section of the hobby.
 
Now you're talking about putting in a wye, which will shift the impedances again. No. Don't do that.
 
If you want an attenuation stage with a wye in it, make it active, as with the PGA2310/2311 mentioned above. But, don't expect it to be transparent. Like any amplification stage, it's going to color the sound somewhat.
 
I've tried that, and it unbalances at low levels, like every other pot I've tried 

 
That's because that's all it is: a pot in a nice enclosure, with some nicely-done captive cabling.
 
except the one in the Schiit Asgard 2 

 
Because tracking error is a random phenomenon, you can get lucky, and find a "perfect" pot where all the errors just happen to null out. If you want to buy a bunch of pots and hand-test them for tracking error, you can come up with another uncommonly-good exemplar of the art. Or, you could get unlucky again, and come up with a batch that all have reinforcing errors of some sort.
 
If you were willing to go to that kind of effort, I'd say it's better spent building your own SA from discrete parts, hand-matching the resistors to high tolerances. As that article explains, that's expensive and time-consuming to do, too,
 
Nov 21, 2015 at 10:32 PM Post #10 of 13
 
  I don't have high end attenuators

 
According to its product page, the KGSS uses a pair of DACT stepped attenuators. That's about as high-end as things get without getting into audiophoolery.
 
DACT claims 0.05 dB tracking accuracy. You're claiming that even that is not good enough? ("...even the KGSS pot unbalances fast...")

It's a Mjolnir one (one pot), not a headamp one.  Also two completely separate pots kinda defeats the point.
 
   
My current Amp is a KGSS, and it doesn't have gain control. 

 
As I hinted above, you may be able to obtain the schematic and then modify its internals to lower its gain.
 
No, don't ask me, I've never built one. Take it up as a separate thread.

I'd rather get something that works for everything I have.  Time inside the amp would be almost better spend putting in a better pot.
 
   
Good dual concentric pots 

 
Just say "stereo audio pot." Every stereo pot is "concentric." That term just means that one control shaft moves both pots at the same time.
 
The best commercially-available stereo audio pot I'm aware of is the ALPS RK27, and as my audio attenuator article's data shows, it's still not as good as the DACT SAs at low levels.
 

 
No.  Those are dual-gang pots.  Concentric pots are different.
 
 
And perhaps a basic guide for making an enclosure properly 

 
Something like this?

 
Sort of.  I found some small enclosures that do what I need: http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=519_142&products_id=15370
 
Or the other links you linked.
 
Nov 22, 2015 at 3:45 AM Post #12 of 13
 
  Concentric pots are different.

 
Really? Educate me.


A dual gang pot is 2 pots controlled by 1 shaft (1 dial to a user).
 
A dual concentric pot is 2 pots controlled by 2 concentric shafts (2 concentric dials to a user).  Normally applying force to either dial causes them both to turn, holding one and turning the other will cause only the other to turn.  There are some that are just independent concentric dials though: https://www.google.com/search?q=concentric+pot&num=100&source=lnms&tbm=isch
 

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