What is 24/192?
Jan 21, 2012 at 8:02 PM Post #16 of 60
Salm0n, you mentioned hdtracks as a place to get hi res music files. What are some other trustworthy places that I can get hi res versions of my music?


Not sure to be honest. I think chesky offers high res downloads but i've never bothered with it myself. All of my music is 16/44.1 FLAC where I can get it or high bit rate mp3 where I can't. Personally I've never noticed a difference between 320 and lossless, I just keep lossless for archival purposes, and doubt that I'd be able to pick 24/192 from 16/44.1.
That said, just googling high res music or 24/192 music, or even asking on the music board should give you and idea of where to get it.
Ultimately the format your music is in makes a much smaller difference than many audiophiles claim, and as Head Injury said you're far better off looking for the highest quality master available than the highest resolution available.
EDIT:
Most high res tracks are jazz or classical recordings from small/independent audiophile labels, so if you're thinking you can grab mainstream music from a high res download site you're out of luck.
 
Jan 21, 2012 at 10:06 PM Post #17 of 60
Quote:
Ok cool. So basically, we the consumers are limited to how hi res we can listen to our music based upon what resolutions record labels want to release their music at. That kinda sucks.
 
But then again, there may not be much of an audible difference anyway...
 
Salm0n, you mentioned hdtracks as a place to get hi res music files. What are some other trustworthy places that I can get hi res versions of my music?


Do remember that 16/44.1 was chosen because it was determined at that time it matched with the limits of the human ear,  and while technology has changed, the limits of the human ear have not. They could have chosen to use 20/60 just as easily and they did not.
As for why most studios only release 16/44? Habit and limited customer base of other formats, that higher definition is likely offer non audible differences may also be a factor.
 
 
Jan 21, 2012 at 10:23 PM Post #18 of 60


Quote:
Do remember that 16/44.1 was chosen because it was determined at that time it matched with the limits of the human ear,  and while technology has changed, the limits of the human ear have not. They could have chosen to use 20/60 just as easily and they did not.
 


Hmm. I read somewhere that that weird number (44.1) was chosen so that a certain classical piece (i don't remember which) could fit entirely on a single disc.
It seemed kind of weird that they would do that. Probably just an urban legend?
 
 
Jan 21, 2012 at 10:30 PM Post #19 of 60
Quote:
Hmm. I read somewhere that that weird number (44.1) was chosen so that a certain classical piece (i don't remember which) could fit entirely on a single disc.
It seemed kind of weird that they would do that. Probably just an urban legend?


The size of a CD was chosen to fit all of Beethoven's 9th symphony if I remember correctly. However, that has nothing to do with the sampling rate and bit depth, only how much 16/44.1 music a CD holds. Probably bit depth and sampling rate were chosen first.
 
Jan 21, 2012 at 10:31 PM Post #20 of 60
Quote:
Quote:
Do remember that 16/44.1 was chosen because it was determined at that time it matched with the limits of the human ear,  and while technology has changed, the limits of the human ear have not. They could have chosen to use 20/60 just as easily and they did not.
 


Hmm. I read somewhere that that weird number (44.1) was chosen so that a certain classical piece (i don't remember which) could fit entirely on a single disc.
It seemed kind of weird that they would do that. Probably just an urban legend?

 
No, it was the diameter of the disc, not the format, besides the story is a little more complicated.
 
Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc#Storage_capacity_and_playing_time

Storage capacity and playing time

 
The partners aimed at a playing time of 60 minutes with a disc diameter of 100 mm (Sony) or 115 mm (Philips).[9] Sony vice-president Norio Ohga suggested extending the capacity to 74 minutes to accommodate Wilhelm Furtwängler's recording of Ludwig van Beethoven's Symphony No. 9 from the 1951 Bayreuth Festival.[23][24]
 
The additional 14-minute playing time subsequently required changing to a 120 mm disc. Kees Immink, Philips' chief engineer, however, denies this, claiming that the increase was motivated by technical considerations, and that even after the increase in size, the Furtwängler recording would not have fit on one of the earliest CDs.[8][9] According to a Sunday Tribune interview,[25] the story is slightly more involved. In 1979, Philips owned PolyGram, one of the world's largest distributors of music. PolyGram had set up a large experimental CD plant in Hannover, Germany, which could produce huge numbers of CDs having, of course, a diameter of 115 mm. Sony did not yet have such a facility. If Sony had agreed on the 115-mm disc, Philips would have had a significant competitive edge in the market. Sony decided that something had to be done. The long playing time of Beethoven's Ninth Symphony imposed by Ohga was used to push Philips to accept 120 mm, so that Philips' PolyGram lost its edge on disc fabrication.[25]

 
 
 
 
 
Jan 22, 2012 at 10:47 AM Post #23 of 60
might not notice difference in normal playback but for using DAW software and producing it makes worlds of difference since lot 24-bit/96khz interfaces has better ASIO support and and much better converters. made difference to me in fl studio and actually added bit overall clarity to my playback music as well in foobar2000. i like it too cause have support for professional output 4db+ gain voltages and the extra voltages from the balanced outputs makes nice difference with my main Yamaha R-9 class A receiver hooked up to it. most playback though for normal music listening you won't notice much difference if at all most of the time but can help lot in recording especially when it comes to multiple track layering.

also not all albums recorded in 24/96khz or 24/192khz won't sound great cause they're recorded in higher bit-rate. for example the Pink Floyd SACD 24/96khz recording sounds worst than the 1973 release vinyl album. the whole 24-bit/96khz and 24-bit/192khz is just there for extra headroom when recording, that's all. won't affect playback in the slightest in most cases. if you don't plan on recording i wouldn't worry about it really.
 
Jan 22, 2012 at 12:42 PM Post #24 of 60
Don’t let anyone tell you whether you can or cannot hear a difference. Download some sample files and see for yourself what you can or can’t hear (using good equipment).  Also, I wouldn’t trust anything anyone says here unless you find evidence or you try it yourself.  It seems people get off on sounding knowledgeable even though a lot of them don’t even bother reading. [size=medium]I have even heard people claim that there are tests to prove there are no audible difference between 128 bitrate mp3 files and flac lossless. [size=medium]Hey, if in your humble opinion you think there is a difference and you enjoy it more, what gives them the right to tell you otherwise? [size=medium]Most of them will attack other opinions because they think it discredits their own opinions.[/size][/size][/size]
 
 
Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]

Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.

From the fact that changes in subjects' EEGs "persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation," Oohashi and his colleagues infer that in audio comparisons, a substantial silent period is required between successive samples to avoid the second evaluation's being corrupted by "hangover" of reaction to the first.
The preprint gives photos of EEG results for only three of sixteen subjects. I hope that more will be published.
 
In a paper published in Science, Lenhardt et al. report that "bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects." [5] They speculate that the saccule may be involved, this being "an otolithic organ that responds to acceleration and gravity and may be responsible for transduction of sound after destruction of the cochlea," and they further point out that the saccule has neural cross-connections with the cochlea. [6]
 
Even if we assume that air-conducted ultrasound does not affect direct perception of live sound, it might still affect us indirectly through interfering with the recording process. Every recording engineer knows that speech sibilants (Figure 10), jangling key rings (Figure 15), and muted trumpets (Figures 1 to 3) can expose problems in recording equipment. If the problems come from energy below 20 kHz, then the recording engineer simply needs better equipment. But if the problems prove to come from the energy beyond 20 kHz, then what's needed is either filtering, which is difficult to carry out without sonically harmful side effects; or wider bandwidth in the entire recording chain, including the storage medium; or a combination of the two.

On the other hand, if the assumption of the previous paragraph be wrong — if it is determined that sound components beyond 20 kHz do matter to human musical perception and pleasure — then for highest fidelity, the option of filtering would have to be rejected, and recording chains and storage media of wider bandwidth would be needed.
 
 
Jan 22, 2012 at 12:54 PM Post #25 of 60
Quote:
Don’t let anyone tell you whether you can or cannot hear a difference. Download some sample files and see for yourself what you can or can’t hear (using good equipment).  Also, I wouldn’t trust anything anyone says here unless you find evidence or you try it yourself.  It seems people get off on sounding knowledgeable even though a lot of them don’t even bother reading. [size=medium]I have even heard people claim that there are tests to prove there are no audible difference between 128 bitrate mp3 files and flac lossless. [size=medium]Hey, if in your humble opinion you think there is a difference and you enjoy it more, what gives them the right to tell you otherwise? [size=medium]Most of them will attack other opinions because they think it discredits their own opinions.[/size][/size][/size]
 
 
Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]

Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.

From the fact that changes in subjects' EEGs "persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation," Oohashi and his colleagues infer that in audio comparisons, a substantial silent period is required between successive samples to avoid the second evaluation's being corrupted by "hangover" of reaction to the first.
The preprint gives photos of EEG results for only three of sixteen subjects. I hope that more will be published.
 
In a paper published in Science, Lenhardt et al. report that "bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects." [5] They speculate that the saccule may be involved, this being "an otolithic organ that responds to acceleration and gravity and may be responsible for transduction of sound after destruction of the cochlea," and they further point out that the saccule has neural cross-connections with the cochlea. [6]
 
Even if we assume that air-conducted ultrasound does not affect direct perception of live sound, it might still affect us indirectly through interfering with the recording process. Every recording engineer knows that speech sibilants (Figure 10), jangling key rings (Figure 15), and muted trumpets (Figures 1 to 3) can expose problems in recording equipment. If the problems come from energy below 20 kHz, then the recording engineer simply needs better equipment. But if the problems prove to come from the energy beyond 20 kHz, then what's needed is either filtering, which is difficult to carry out without sonically harmful side effects; or wider bandwidth in the entire recording chain, including the storage medium; or a combination of the two.

On the other hand, if the assumption of the previous paragraph be wrong — if it is determined that sound components beyond 20 kHz do matter to human musical perception and pleasure — then for highest fidelity, the option of filtering would have to be rejected, and recording chains and storage media of wider bandwidth would be needed.
 


But there's an actual reason why bit rate matters, but not bit depth or sampling rate.
 
Oohashi's test was flawed. Many peers suspect it was IMD within the audible range caused by the extra tweeter, and not because of >20 kHz sound. There are posts all over the place about it here in Sound Science. You participated in some of the threads where it was brought up, such as kiteki's thread. You seem to have ignored it because it didn't fit your beliefs.
 
Could you provide sources for the bone-conducted hearing? I expect it's not what you think it is, and wouldn't be reproduced by speakers at any sane volume. That's if it's true, of course.
 
We are talking about playback, not recording or mastering. Higher sampling rates have their uses in recording. They don't for playback. 44.1 kHz sampling rate is enough for 20 kHz sound and rolloff up to 22 kHz to prevent audible issues an immediate cutoff might cause. What sort of problems might the downsampling cause? That's the only place I'd expect problems to occur.
 
If it makes a difference, surely it wouldn't be too hard to find a good blind test? You wouldn't even need to write everything you did, or hypothesize about the benefits.
 
Jan 22, 2012 at 1:35 PM Post #26 of 60
In this article Yeo Dude of diyparadise.com shows the difference between 44.1 CD and higher sample-rates:
 
http://diyparadise.com/web/learn-learn-learn-mainmenu-27/157
 
 
 
Jan 22, 2012 at 2:20 PM Post #28 of 60


Quote:
In this article Yeo Dude of diyparadise.com shows the difference between 44.1 CD and higher sample-rates:
 
http://diyparadise.com/web/learn-learn-learn-mainmenu-27/157
 
 



 
Quote:
Too bad our ears don't hear as good as computers, huh.


 
Exactly.  Run the output through a low-pass filter eliminating frequencies above the Nyquist frequency (the rolloff would actually start before that), and the differences would disappear.  What makes the sine wave look ugly is high frequency harmonics that are normally filtered out in the DAC and that we can't hear in the first place.  Underlying those is the same pretty 10 kHz and 16 kHz waves as the higher sampling rates.
 
The test is either set up to be misleading or it's done by someone who's misleading him/herself.  Basically it's a sham of the same order as cable pseudoscience.
 
 
Jan 22, 2012 at 3:00 PM Post #29 of 60


Quote:
But there's an actual reason why bit rate matters, but not bit depth or sampling rate.
 
Oohashi's test was flawed. Many peers suspect it was IMD within the audible range (Ashihara et al, attempted to replicate using the same protocol but without the separate tweeter, they did not get the same results, Oohashi had a vested interest in the super-tweeter technology and has not attempted a follow-up which you would nromally do when critiqued, but even more simply Meyer and Moran's 2007 tests used high res and nobbled to redbook (via the analog outputs no less !) samples and their subjects were unable to detect a difference in 527 trials and 60 subjects ) caused by the extra tweeter, and not because of >20 kHz sound. There are posts all over the place about it here in Sound Science. You participated in some of the threads where it was brought up, such as kiteki's thread. You seem to have ignored it because it didn't fit your beliefs.
 
Could you provide sources for the bone-conducted hearing? I expect it's not what you think it is, and wouldn't be reproduced by speakers at any sane volume. That's if it's true, of course.
 
he is citing Boyk who cites Oohashi who cites Lenhart - Lenhart's results are pretty old and have been questioned by Japanese researchers (Intelligibility of bone-conducted ultrasonic speech, Okamotoa, Nakagawaa, Fujimotoa and Tonoikea(2005), Hearing Research, Volume 208, Issues 1–2, October 2005, Pages 107–113 - "The relationship between speech intelligibility and sound level showed that the increase in the intelligibility of bone-conducted ultrasonic speech did not exceed the increase in the intelligibility of air-conducted speech as the sound level rose."
 
 
 
We are talking about playback, not recording or mastering. Higher sampling rates have their uses in recording. They don't for playback. 44.1 kHz sampling rate is enough for 20 kHz sound and rolloff up to 22 kHz to prevent audible issues an immediate cutoff might cause. What sort of problems might the downsampling cause? That's the only place I'd expect problems to occur.
 
If it makes a difference, surely it wouldn't be too hard to find a good blind test? You wouldn't even need to write everything you did, or hypothesize about the benefits.



 
 

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