[JayJayz]

would you say an iMod has the best SQ and line out? what about other players like iRiver's,etc.

also with HD players how do you keep or improve the SQ with files ripped off CD's or mp3s ? ive heard of lossless, is that the best? which means loses no SQ ?

 

[sidewinder]

WAV is superb, but takes a lot of space. There is a clear difference between this one and a 320 kB MP3 file, though perhaps not so audible on not so good equipment.

 

[JayJayz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder WAV is superb, but takes a lot of space. There is a clear difference between this one and a 320 kB MP3 file, though perhaps not so audible on not so good equipment.

would you say .wav files are better than apple lossless ? also .flac is that any good?

also don't steer this away from the main conversation.

 

[sidewinder]

I haven't heard lossless or flac. WAV is uncompressed, and thus very big. Lossless or flac probably use the method of variable bit rate (=if there's no information needed to store in the file, it won't store it). It could well be that WAV is less 'practical' compared to other files. Some swear by flac, some by lossless, some by WAV, but in the end the're all beter than a 128 kB MP3 for sure. Of course, crap in crap out, but these formats are highly regarded around here, so don't worry.

The iMod seems to be a very good HD player, but is it worth the $500? What do you actually want, a CD or a HD player, cause in the other topic you're looking for a CD player with good line out. You've also started a topic about players with anti-skip. So what do you need in the end?

At first I was also looking for a nice MP3 player, but ended up with buying several vintage PCDP, with and without anti-skip. Not really so much into HD players nowadays.

 

[ObiHuang]

I don't own one, nor have I listened to one, but technically speaking the Creative Vision:M is the winner. It has the best Sound/Noise ratio out of any portable player right now, and above average marks in distortion and frequency response.

The downside is that it doesn't come in a 60GB version. I love my iPod 60GB 5G but that damned hiss annoys the crap outta me when I use IEMs, so my vote goes to the Vision:M.

 

[ObiHuang]

Short Version: iPod - Keep Original Firmware - 192kb/sec VBR AAC
iPod - Use Rockbox Firmware - 192kb/sec OGG Vorbis
You're Confused - 192kb/sec MP3 (Using LAME encoder)

Long Version:
To find out what file format//level of compression you need, first figure out what player you want.

If you're going the iPod route with the standard firmware, I say use AAC which is extremely efficient. If you use the alternate iPod firmware called Rockbox, I'd advise using OGG which is another very efficient codec that is not supported by the normal iPod firmware. AAC has very buggy support on Rockbox so once you choose a firmware, you're stuck using either AAC or OGG but not both. If you want to sacrifice a bit of efficiency but gain a lot in compatibility, use MP3 with the LAME encoder, which will be usable in basically every electronic device that plays audio. Remember to specifically use a LAME encoder as it is a more efficient compression than non-LAME encoders.

If you go to Vison:M route, I'm honestly not sure if WMV is more efficient than LAME MP3.

To choose a bitrate, download a little program called "foobar" from http://www.foobar2000.org/ and get the most complex music you listen to. If you're lucky, it'll have lots of cymbals and applause. Okay, now rip that file in both a lossless format of your choice and a 192kb/sec version of that file. Select both in foobar, right click and do a ABX test. If you can't tell the difference, don't be ashamed. Most people won't, and the people who do try way too hard to, and can't enjoy the music while they listen for artifacts. Go ahead and rip your entire collection in 192kb/sec. If you CAN hear the difference (if your music is RIDICULOUSLY complex, 192kb/sec may have artifacts) and try again at 256kb/sec. If you can ABX this, WOW. Encode at 320kb/sec and don't even bother trying to ABX, because this is definetely going to be impossible. If you don't have that much music (less than 100CDs) go ahead and rip your CDs at 320kb/sec.

Do NOT use lossless unless you never plan on owning more than 50 CDs. Lossless formats are usually a minimum of 700kb/sec and with more complex songs, can take up >1000kb/sec.

 

[crypt@]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJayz would you say an iMod has the best SQ and line out? what about other players like iRiver's,etc.

Possibily one that has digital out rather than simply analog out, i.e. iHP140/120 with optical out?
Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJayz ... also with HD players how do you keep or improve the SQ with files ripped off CD's or mp3s ? ive heard of lossless, is that the best? which means loses no SQ ?

You can't improve SQ on files that is ripped into MP3. MP3 is lossy, i.e. during the transcoding process selected bits are discarded to reduce physical size then it is further reduced by compression. Instead, SQ can be preserved by ripping into WAV using a decent audio ripper, e.g. ExactAudioCopy.

Typically, if you rip the same track several times, and the resulting WAV are identical, then the ripping process is the best the optical drive, software can reach. This WAV file can then be transcoded into lossless format such as FLAC, APE. Lossless are good for archival purpose - e.g. reducing your collection of CD-A by FLAC'ing onto a DVD.

Lossy format such as Vorbis (8) and 224Kbps MP3 are generally regarded as *best* SQ, though Vorbis (6), MP3 @192Kbps, IMHO, are close enough. Having said that, 50% of mine are FLAC!

 

[Cousin Patty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sidewinder I haven't heard lossless or flac. WAV is uncompressed, and thus very big. Lossless or flac probably use the method of variable bit rate (=if there's no information needed to store in the file, it won't store it). It could well be that WAV is less 'practical' compared to other files. Some swear by flac, some by lossless, some by WAV, but in the end the're all beter than a 128 kB MP3 for sure. Of course, crap in crap out, but these formats are highly regarded around here, so don't worry. The iMod seems to be a very good HD player, but is it worth the $500? What do you actually want, a CD or a HD player, cause in the other topic you're looking for a CD player with good line out. You've also started a topic about players with anti-skip. So what do you need in the end? At first I was also looking for a nice MP3 player, but ended up with buying several vintage PCDP, with and without anti-skip. Not really so much into HD players nowadays.

flac IS lossless. there is no difference in sound quality between a wav and a flac file. its preferable to use flac because you get the tagging features and smaller file size.

 

[JWolf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJayz would you say an iMod has the best SQ and line out? what about other players like iRiver's,etc. also with HD players how do you keep or improve the SQ with files ripped off CD's or mp3s ? ive heard of lossless, is that the best? which means loses no SQ?

If you have a file in MP3, there is no way to improve how it sounds. It is lossy meaning that some of the bits of the file were tossed out when it was compressed. The quality of the Mp3 file depends on a number of things such as the encoder used, bit rate, VBR or CBR, the music itself and how well it works with MP3 compress. Some MP3 has noticable artifacts which really sound awful.

Lossless is just what it says it is. No loss to the original uncompressed audio file. If you properly rip a track from a CD and compress it using FLAC (best to use level 8) you will have the very same source file if you decompress. So loss in the bits. It's all right there.

I have a Rio Karma that can play FLAC, MP3, WAV, OGG VORBIS, & WMA. The line out is via the docking station. It does sound good to me. I've not heard an iRiver or Ipod via the line out to compare.

Now as to your source, the iPod (some models) and the iRiver (some models) can have their firmware replaced with Rockbox. This is a 3rd party firware that improves the audio playback of the units. They add the ability to play more audio formats such as FLAC & Ogg Vorbis alomng with gapless playback (very important in tracks that are supposed to be seamless) and in the case of the iPod, possibly better sound quality. I've not read of the iRiver having a sound quality increase other then by the face that lossless audio is possible. Ogg vorbis is the best lossy compression currently. If you use qualty 9 or 10, you will have larger files then 320k CBR MP3 or AAC, but you have a lot closer sound to the oiginal music. And for most uses people use their portables for, this is just fine. No noticable artifacts is a big deal. Better musical range, better imaging. It's still tossing away bits, but at qualty 9 or 10, less bits then MP3/AAC and Ogg Vorbis tosses the bits away that leaves you with a more musical sound even at the same bitrate as MP3/AAC.

If you want an iPod you want a 5g as that's the best version of Rockbox for the iPod based on better internal hardware. If you want an iRiver, you want the H120 or H140 as they are said to be better then even the iRiver models sold today.

If you have tracks in MP3 or AAC that you want to sound better, rerip from CD and compress with Ogg Vorbis or FLAC as long as you have either a player that supports FLAC & Ogg Vorbis. You'll not regret getting a good player. I was never a fan of the iPod's inferior sound from the stock firmware and headphone out. But after learning enough about the line out and Rockbox, the iPod is now a viable player. In my opinion, I reccomend the Rio Karma (ebay is a good place to get just like the iRiver H120/H140), the iRiver H120/H140 (with Rockbox), or 5g iPod (with Rockbox). You'll have good sound from all of them. The one thing the iRiver has that the others do not is a digitial audio out. Now the next thing to get after the player is a headphone amp and a good set of cans. But we'll leave those for another thread.

The upshot of this is once you get a good player, you can then experiment with different audio compression formats for your CD rips. My personal prefference when I rip is either FLAC or Ogg Vorbis.

 

[omendelovitz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObiHuang I don't own one, nor have I listened to one, but technically speaking the Creative Vision:M is the winner. It has the best Sound/Noise ratio out of any portable player right now, and above average marks in distortion and frequency response. The downside is that it doesn't come in a 60GB version. I love my iPod 60GB 5G but that damned hiss annoys the crap outta me when I use IEMs, so my vote goes to the Vision:M.

Somebody's been regurgitating CNet...

owned a ZVM - sound is awesome, but no lossless support (except exorbitantly large wav files, which are arguable not lossless, but original format [1411kbps, not 5-- to 9-- kbps]). SNR and distortion, etc. aren't really what constitutes good SQ, although they do help. iPod w/rockbox sounds essentially as good as ZVM.

iPod 5g and IEM hiss are really annoying, but I use LO and an amp (Rockbox should kill the hiss out of the HO jack anyway).

 

[Laptopia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayJayz would you say an iMod has the best SQ and line out? what about other players like iRiver's,etc. also with HD players how do you keep or improve the SQ with files ripped off CD's or mp3s ? ive heard of lossless, is that the best? which means loses no SQ ?

First, my iriver H10 has just excellent SQ, right out of the player. No perceived hiss, even with the super-sensitive ER4P, E5c, etc. If you get that player, you might have all you need.

But in the tradition of this community, I was compelled to gild the lily, so I bought an iriver H140 and put the alternate O/S "Rockbox" on it (www.rockbox.org), then ripped my CD collection in FLAC, using super shareware called Exact Audio Copy (www.chrismyden.com). I was able to store my entire, large CD collection on an external drive which was very reasonable. I back it up to an identical external drive and a third internal drive, to cover myself in case of data loss.

This has given me the flexibility to make perfect backup CDs in case I lose the original, and I can down-encode FLAC to MP3 using Foobar in seconds, and load that to my peerless H10.

All of this has worked for me, but it took some tinkering. I am not terribly experienced in this, so if I did it, anybody can, and I am enjoying my music more than I ever have, which is the point of all of this in the first place.

Happy listening.

 

[theory_87]

just a question to ask... between H1XX and H3XX... which produce better sound? my h10 just die on me yesterday and i'm think of getting either a HDD mp3, if not a small and portable mp3. in mind is iriver H series, ipod 5g, cowon iaudio X5L. but iAudio X5L seems to have bass roll off on lineout

 

[JWolf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by theory_87 just a question to ask... between H1XX and H3XX... which produce better sound? my h10 just die on me yesterday and i'm think of getting either a HDD mp3, if not a small and portable mp3. in mind is iriver H series, ipod 5g, cowon iaudio X5L. but iAudio X5L seems to have bass roll off on lineout

I know the iRiver H120/H140 has a digital audio out. But the iPod 5g is better supported. If I was getting a player, I'd go with the 60gb 5g and put Rockbox on it.

 

[wolfen68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by theory_87 just a question to ask... between H1XX and H3XX... which produce better sound? my h10 just die on me yesterday and i'm think of getting either a HDD mp3, if not a small and portable mp3. in mind is iriver H series, ipod 5g, cowon iaudio X5L. but iAudio X5L seems to have bass roll off on lineout

H1xx and H3xx will sound the same unless you utilize the H1xx optical out which will provide an edge using an external DAC.

The X5 does sound "weak" to me using the lineout. However, I was always impressed with the quality of amping the headphone out..so that is an option.

 

[theory_87]

well... i'll be amping the player using my crossroad hp1 amp or LDM+ with kcs75 or im716. just wondering will ipod lineout be better or the iriver H series. and it seems H1XX is better sound than H3XX...