What have I missed in the realm of tube amps in the last few years?
Nov 20, 2019 at 11:49 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 10

ninjames

I get people telling me I say dumb things all day.
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Hello friends! I used to use a Little Dot MKIII (at least I think that's what it was), but eventually sold it when money was tight. For the past four years or so I've been using a Schiit Magni and a JDS Labs DAC with my Hifiman HE-400.

Now I'm a bit of a better financial place, and was looking at getting back in the tube amp game. My tastes are pretty simple -- I don't need the craziest tube amp and I'd like to spend under $500. I was looking at Schiit's offerings, since I've enjoyed their other products. It looks like it's the Lyr 3, Vali 2, and Valhalla 2 as far as Schiit goes.

So first: Anybody have opinions as to whether or not the Lyr 3 is worth the price over the other ones (and if the Valhalla 2 is worth the price over the Vali 2, I suppose)

Second: have there been any tube amps in this price range that the community really enjoyed/embraced? Something I might have missed having been out of the game for a few years?

I intend to continue using my JDS Labs DAC and my HE-400s, and possibly occasionally my RCA IEMs.

EDIT: I suppose I should clarify. I'm looking for recommendations and thoughts on the current tube amp landscape, the recommendations don't NEED to be from the past few years.

EDIT 2: I see people on Reddit talking about the Lyr 3 having issues with frying headphones. Has that ever been addressed?
 
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Nov 21, 2019 at 2:36 AM Post #2 of 10
Now I'm a bit of a better financial place, and was looking at getting back in the tube amp game. My tastes are pretty simple -- I don't need the craziest tube amp and I'd like to spend under $500. I was looking at Schiit's offerings, since I've enjoyed their other products. It looks like it's the Lyr 3, Vali 2, and Valhalla 2 as far as Schiit goes.

So first: Anybody have opinions as to whether or not the Lyr 3 is worth the price over the other ones

Lyr 3 works with practically everything other than electrostats thanks to the massive power output that is not like how with speakers a pro-audio Class G PA amp will likely have very audible noise in a quiet room vs a Class A amplifier with a fraction of the power output. So unless you're looking for a specific kind of distortion in whatever quantity, or one with very low noise, or just want pure Class A operation but not giving up power, there's no real reason to upgrade from that.

Vali 2 is kind of like discount Lyr 3 except if you look at it in pure numbers terms the power output drops faster than the price does, and some people report audible tube noise.

Valhalla 2 is an OTL amp and even with its low output impedance that guarantees better control over the drivers vs other OTL amps, that's 1) still only in comparison to OTL amps and 2) its power delivery is biased for high impedance loads, and 3) the Lyr 3 still makes equal power at those high impedance loads anyway. Technically speaking though if you're looking for a tube amp; the other two are hybrid amplifiers (tube gainstage, solid state output stage) that uses solid state components for actually amplifying the sound (ie applying energy to turn it into watts) and only use energy to up the voltage on the input signal (preamp).


Second: have there been any tube amps in this price range that the community really enjoyed/embraced? Something I might have missed having been out of the game for a few years?

I intend to continue using my JDS Labs DAC and my HE-400s, and possibly occasionally my RCA IEMs.

Pure tube: none for a 35ohm, 93dB/1mW headphone.

Hybrid: Lyr3, maybe. But depending on the impedance and sensitivity of the IEM an amp like that might have easily audible noise through those.


EDIT: I suppose I should clarify. I'm looking for recommendations and thoughts on the current tube amp landscape, the recommendations don't NEED to be from the past few years.

If you also need it for IEMs it's going to have to be from the past few years, and even then there's no guarantee on the noise.


EDIT 2: I see people on Reddit talking about the Lyr 3 having issues with frying headphones. Has that ever been addressed?

Might as well just wait a bit longer depending on what you're using right now.

Or change your parameters. Does it really have to have a tube? Does it really have to work with an IEM?
 
Nov 21, 2019 at 12:25 PM Post #4 of 10
Hi @ninjames,

The only thing I will add to @ProtegeManiac's otherwise excellent points are the following :

Drop Cavalli Tube Hybrid or CTH
Loxijie P20


These are the only two tube amps I have & have tried so far which can handle IEMs well, specifically have a low noise floor suited for that purpose.
Though with CTH, it will also depend on tube used for minimising noise.
So unless the IEM has ridiculously low impedence, then you should be more than fine & before anyone chimes in, I don't use IE Match as it doesn't work for me given I can still hear any audible hiss even with IE Match in place which is why I don't use it.

Feel free to ask if necessary.

Hope you have a great day !
 
Nov 21, 2019 at 3:42 PM Post #5 of 10
Thanks @ProtegeManiac for the detailed response. Working with my IEMs is extremely low on the list. It's just an afterthought/bonus type thing. I should have made that clearer. The only use case that matters is that it won't have issues with my HE-400s. Also, is the waiting a bit longer due to the Lyr 3 being newer, or just that it's not a good fir for my parameters?

Mostly, I want a tube amp because I miss the tube sound. I liked how the Little Dot MKIII made my HE-400s sound back in the day.

@tomb Does it change the equation if I leave the IEMs out?
 
Nov 21, 2019 at 5:39 PM Post #6 of 10
Thanks @ProtegeManiac for the detailed response. Working with my IEMs is extremely low on the list. It's just an afterthought/bonus type thing. I should have made that clearer. The only use case that matters is that it won't have issues with my HE-400s. Also, is the waiting a bit longer due to the Lyr 3 being newer, or just that it's not a good fir for my parameters?

Primarily because you've heard of people having problems with it and second if you want a pure tube amp that works properly for a 35ohm, 93dB headphone then get a WA6 or WA6se. Problem is...


Mostly, I want a tube amp because I miss the tube sound. I liked how the Little Dot MKIII made my HE-400s sound back in the day.

...apparently we have very different standards for what counts as "works properly."

Mine is "lowest distortion and noise for as much power to preserve power headroom for peaks that I can afford."

Yours is "deliberately adding distortion to make it sound subjectively good even if it means using an amp that runs out of power and not have the same noise performance it would otherwise have for the higher impedance headphones it was designed for and less representative of what either the recording or the speaker/headphone would normally sound like if fed a flat but dynamic signal."

In photography terms, I'm using HDR to bring out all the detail without overdoing saturation.
Mammoth Twin Lake by ezrazxz
(Normal -3 would make those creek walls and the center of the frame where the leaves and mountain shadow reflect practically black; +2 leaves the top of the creek wall and all other bright parts totally washed out; so I merged -3, -2.66, -2.33, -2, -1.66, -1.33, -1, -0.66, -0.33, 0, +1, +1.33, +1.66, +2).

By comparison yours would be like using Photoshop to make something or someone look good...
before-after-photoshop-celebrities-fb1__700-png.jpg


...or overdoing HDR with too much contrast and/or saturation the way some OTL amps can interact with some headphones and boost the range where the drums and vocals are, emphasizing the beat and main melody, ie the extreme end of "musical" on the spectrum (the opposite being "clinical") that doesn't even come from "having a lot of clean power."
MV5BMTk1Nzc3NDI3M15BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTAxODc3MQ@@._V1_.jpg
 
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Nov 21, 2019 at 6:04 PM Post #7 of 10
I guess that makes sense, but I never said I needed a "pure" tube amp. I like the tube sound, and I see tons of people saying both the Little Dot MKIII (my old amp) and the Lyr 3 work great with the HE-400. If it's not neutral or technically transparent, I don't really care. Does that help @ProtegeManiac?

I figured noting that the Little Dot was my previous amp was a sign that I am fine and, based on my budget, actually prefer hybrid amps. I'm fine to just buy another Little Dot MKIII at this point, I was just wondering if there were new insights since the last time I checked in. I suppose not.

Either way, thanks for trying to help.
 
Nov 21, 2019 at 8:26 PM Post #8 of 10
I guess that makes sense, but I never said I needed a "pure" tube amp.

That's why I said if, since I don't know. You said you wanted a "tube amp" but listed the Lyr, so I have to say "if" since I don't know exactly what you mean. The Lyr's amplification stage is solid state, so it's not a tube amplifier; it has that paired to a tube gainstage, hence a hybrid. It's like the difference between a Mazda Skyactiv or Prius vs a Tesla. The Lyr has tubes sticking out but its not a hybrid in the same sense that a Mazda can't use the carpool lane with a single occupant, but calling it a tube amp is like the Prius being allowed to join single occupant Teslas in the carpool lane (except it happened before the Tesla and the Mazdas).


I like the tube sound, and I see tons of people saying both the Little Dot MKIII (my old amp) and the Lyr 3 work great with the HE-400. If it's not neutral or technically transparent, I don't really care. Does that help @ProtegeManiac?

Not really.

It can just rephrase how I put it above from "in photog terms, what I want vs what you want" (sic) into "in photog terms, what you heard from other people is technically good vs what you want."

Those in blue mean the same thing and those in green mean the same thing, and the examples above still work, including if instead of the Lyr it would be something like the WA6(se) or similar.


I figured noting that the Little Dot was my previous amp was a sign that I am fine and, based on my budget, actually prefer hybrid amps. I'm fine to just buy another Little Dot MKIII at this point, I was just wondering if there were new insights since the last time I checked in. I suppose not.

You'd be better off buying another LD MkIII.

This is because OTL tube amplifiers have a very high output impedance and deliver very low, high distortion and sometimes higher noise, low current power into lower impedance loads (the noise might not come up unless really cranked up, hence how easy it is to get away using some OTL amps on Grados). As much as planars are less affected by reduced damping factor due to high output impedance - the very general rule is a 1:8 ratio of output impedance to load impedance - that usually doesn't hold as well once the output impedance is already far higher than the load impedance.

This kind of interaction between a high output impedance, high distortion, possibly higher noise, low current power and a low impedance (worse if low sensitivity) load can wildly. I had a Little Dot MkII, and while it can sound fine on the HD600 (if with a tiny bit of bass bloat) since it's a high impedance load, the AKG K701 sounds like a tin can (the sound has full body on a Meier Cantate.2 for example) while the Grado SR225 has its upper bass boosted and when cranked up a bit to my hearing threshold, the normal Grado "thump!" goes from "THUMP!" then all the way to "THWWWUMP." Put the same set of headphones on something like a Darkvoice DV336se, and it's not just an across the board lower distortion as it is on the HD600 (the perception that it's darker is due more to no background hiss even when cranked up) but the K701 goes from it's "thump!" on the Meier Cantate.2 to more of a "THWump!" while the Grado mostly just stays at "THWUMP!" Use a solid state amp circuit which has a similarly high output impedance, ie my old NAD 304, and the HD600 is a little bit boring (low voltage output) though at least not sharp, and both the K701 and SR225 sound like absolutely unusable tin cans.

In short, since you don't care about transparency in the amplification quality, it's safer to get the MkIII than gamble on another OTL amp unless you get feedback that that other OTL amp can do exactly what it does. And you shouldn't get any of the good transformer couple amps either, since those amps tend to have sound closer to the Lyr - low output impedance (just higher than the Lyr, usually) with a lot of power for low impedance loads that provides a clean musical sound in the sense that the amp isn't distorting nor clipping as opposed to deliberately introducing an equalizer effect to the sound. One possible distinction being that a pure tube amp, even transformer coupled, is usually more likely to be able to preserve the 3D quality of the imaging, as much as it can on a system like headphones where you only hear one driver per ear; that said, my Meier Cantate.2 with Crossfeed tends to work better at that than my Pangea HP101 even with software Crossfeed at the same settings as the Cantate's.

The thing about the unpredictability though is that while there's a possibility that the MkII and the Lyr might sound similar on the HE400 (if at least when not cranked up), the thing is I can't have a good guess about it. At best what I can presume is that they might sound similar, but you might be able to note that - to use flowery audiophile adjectives - the Lyr would be less syrupy sweet in the midrange, and perceive its tighter low end thump to be outright weaker (despite more power) compared to the EQ effect from the OTL amp losing control.

In automotive terms, it's like talking about engine power and handling on buying a car. You want it a bit loose so it will be a bit of fun, so you need to get a pre-993 generation Porsche 911, which you already had before anyway and you know exactly what you're getting, while I'm more likely to go with, say, a 997 Carrera S with a 3.8L, which has more torque but even with the heavier, torquier engine, also comes with wider tyres and so is more planted and less "fun" in Jeremy Clarkson's sense of what a "fun" car is. Clarkson wants to throw it around a runway, I just want to hit the apex and throttle steer it pulling out and not so much sliding sideways with the risk of spinning right off the road and into the cliffside. Or actually I'm most likely to grab a V6 classic NSX (if the revised version from the early 2000s) and then put a supercharger on it so it's easier to throttle steer with some torque (but not have weight behind the rear axle to make that torque spin the car almost instantly with traction control off).
 
Nov 22, 2019 at 2:13 AM Post #9 of 10
Eh .. I don't mean to seem ungrateful -- always good to have people who know what they're talking about. But I'm not new to any of this, I understand how tube amps work. I suppose I'll just do some more research. Thank you for the effort.
 
Nov 25, 2019 at 7:13 PM Post #10 of 10
I can recommend looking into the Garage 1217 offerings, all are under $500 and have some interesting features. Love my Project Ember with the Amperex 7308 gold pin and Mazda 6CG7 tubes - as clean and clear as any solid state amp but with that body and separation you can only get from something using tubes.

http://www.garage1217.com/index.html
 
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