[cerbie]

With the exception of rock dying with Cobain, I think markl hit it. Given how much it still reverberates over a decade later, it will still be an event remembered for many years to come.

Most especially, he's right about the big guys not liking the unpredictability of the artists. Not that a creative person can't learn to guide that ability, but that they may want to go in directions that may not equal crazy profits.

The ability to find things through the internet, I believe, is currently delaying another such movement.

 

[Vagabond]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Actually, there are a LOT of people who think Courtney had him done. I've looked at some of the evidence. I can say there are enough holes to warrant a few conspiracy theories. Kurt Cobain aside, my own feeling is that the Music Industry killed grunge. Why? Let's think about it. But first a digression.. I was THE demographic for the whole alt rock explosion of that time and can provide some insight. Grunge grew out of a horrible economic recession of the late 80s/early 90s, a story woefully under-reported at the time, but that ultimately swept Clinton into office ("it's the economy stupid", and yes it was). Folks like me, raised on early alt rock like REM, U2, Replacements, etc. were in college at this time with absolutely ZERO prospects for employment after graduation. I can't tell you how much angst there was at the time, it mirrored the "no future" mantra of the seventies UK punk explosion that grew out of the late 70s UK recession. People were receptive at that time to music with some depth and something other than a positive message. So, you had lots of over-educated and under-employed young adults with no prospects. A lot of them said "screw it" and formed bands. That's why you got a plethora of over-qualified rock stars with excess talent and brains at that time. Had the economy been different these creative people would have had gainful employment elsewhere. What music did the most prosperous time in recent American history breed (ie. late 90's)? Crappy boy bands and stripper girls with no talent and no great music. All the potential great artists of this period were vacummed up by corporate America and were designing web pages and such instead of making a musical racket. Anyway, back to the music industry. Grunge hit them out of nowhere, they weren't prepared, and it was NOT under their control. Like a school of fish that suddenly changes direction, the people decided (for a change) which way music was going and they had to follow. Unfortuneately for the multi-nationals that now controlled music, these new artists were wholly unreliable. They were artists with actual musical ambitions. You couldn't tell them what to record, what the single was, how to dress, what video to make, etc. The music went where it wanted to go. You couldn't control them, and you couldn't bank on them for next quarter's profits. They were liable to overdose, implode in the media, or worst case scenario, kill themselves, ruining all future profit forecasts. They said- "enough". What followed grunge? Where did Britney Spears and Backstreet Boys and NSync come from? Pop music made a 180 degree turn that was abrupt and incongruous; I remember watching it happen, but this time it had nothing to do with what the people wanted but what the corporations wanted. I remember the first time I saw the Backstreet Boys video on MTV. "Backstreet's back all right". Back? I didn't know you'd gone away, or that you'd ever been here before. Overnight, how do you go from 24 hours of video and coverage of Alice in Chains to Backstreet Boys? This was a conscious choice. The industry picked young kids that had their songs, images and lives under strict control. You can bank on Britney (or at least you could then ), not Kurt Cobain. So that's my conspiracy theory and why I think the pop music of the last 10 years has been so poor (Anyone want to debate that? I thought not.). Pop culture is carefully controlled now, there is no room for the next Nirvana to break out. It just won't happen. Years in the future, when musical historians look back, they will say rock 'n roll died with Kurt Cobain.

I think I just read the greatest post I have ever read in any forum. Anywhere. Ever. Thank you.

 

[markl]

Thanks, Vagabond. I see a relatively simple (and obvious) question that has a VERY COMPLICATED answer.

 

[eduj]

+1.Really excellent post markl.

 

[bong]

brilliant post, markl. it does put things into perspective, especially for the youth (counter)culture of the time.

here's my take on it (and i'll make it short and sweet because i'm sleepy

), but things like the music industry evolve. it may be true that Grunge died with Kurt Cobain and Layne Staley, or even because of Weiland's troubles or Vedder's reluctance to the spotlight. Grunge bands were already hard to work with already, and i'm not sure if a lot of the bands wanted to remain popular in the public eye.

also, i also think the media has a part in killing off Grunge. when Grunge came about, it opened the floodgates to all things Alternative at the time, and then everyone and everything used that term as a buzzword until Alternative became mainstream... it had no meaning anymore. the term "opened the floodgates" also reflected the attitudes of the record companies as they went on a scramble to sign anyone (with talent or not) that were deemed "Alternative" and decided to mold these artists in their own understanding of the term. that also killed Grunge and Alternative.

lastly, i remember the industry doing a full 180 degree turn (as markl remembers it). perhaps the music industry decided that people had enough of all this angsty negativity rock and pushed somehting that's easily accessible, pop, image conscious, and bubblegum; and perhaps the public agreed, but whatever it was the industry did so well at this 180 degree turn, i remembered the newer generation of music buying public lapped it up.

so yeah, there's a lot of variables to why Grunge didn't last. but then if you see it as a movement; or worse, a fad (remember when high fashion had Grungy inspired clothing?), these things come to an end, as all things do.

with how the industry operates today, they seem to have a very firm hand on what's being released right now, so an explosion like Grunge is very unlikely to happen in such a static environment. it'll be interesting to see what does happen in the near future.

 

[BrookR1]

In 10-20 years another generation will pick it up and add their own interpretation to the music. It will evolve into something different. In the 80s, we thought the 70s (and disco) were dead...and then it became a new fad in the 90s.

I honestly don't think it has entirely died out. Whenever I turn on 91X or KROQ, there's always a grunge song that pops up every 20 minutes. Between grunge and resurrection weekends (80s music) played so much on 91X, they don't have time to play new innovative stuff. 91X has taken a dive because they refuse to let go and move forward.

 

[roadtonowhere08]

IMO, markl nailed it on the head. Grunge really was the last popular original, and creative emotion-filled genre in music. It will take a lot for popular music to mean anything worthwhile again. Nothing popular has touched "Ten" since its release in 1991. IMO, of course.

 

[Exit Pupil]

in 'filth and fury', johnny rotten said the US finally got their real punk with nirvana.

edit?

just my opinions! which have been known to be questionable...

 

[Ubel]

Wow. Just, wow. That's a truly truthful and awe inspiring post markl.
Thank you, thank you very much.

Joseph

 

[JohnFerrier]

I recall a documentary where Kurt talked about searching for a new direction for the band. Seriously. I can't remember the exact words, but it seemed like he wanted to do music that was more uptempo and perhaps danceable (maybe something like The Cars). Anyone else see the video? Anyway, IMO, he was a true artist of his decade. I visited the muffler shop (where he had appearantly worked) to see the larger than life tribute to Kurt.

(Pretty cool of the city to use this tribute.)

 

[Frostychrist]

Excellent post mark. Me personally I have always tried to stay out of the "pop" culture music scene. And it wasn't just boy bands and striper girls. You had bands like Limp Bizkit that came out to package that rebellion and angst that most people were filling.
IMO, the one thing that has had the biggest effect on music has been the internet. In the late 90's when the internet was really taking off (well it was before then) and Mp3's were gaining in popularity. Bands realized that they were able to get albums out without a recording label and a way to make that music very accesible all of a sudden and it made the underground alot more easy to be a part of.
Ultimately, Sobriety killed grunge. A messed up thing to say but look at the quality of albums that came out before and after all the drug use.

 

[adolphe]

For those who enjoy the history of music (I think all the posters in this thread do by the looks of things), I recommend listening to the History of New Music series. It's a syndicated radio show in Canada, produced in Toronto. Particular relevance to this thread are shows about Alice in Chains, several about nirvana (including episodes devoted to Kurt Cobain's death), Pearl Jam and Soundgarden. Listen, learn, and be enlightened!

http://www.edge102.com/station/ongoi...ell=6743&pge=1

Btw, I figured I had to post given may avatar

Oh there's also a show about the pop rock cycle. I forget if it has its own title, or if it's a part of another episode. Basically it talks about how Rock will peak and crash followed by a rising of pop. This has happened several times throughout music's history and Allan Cross goes through it in detail.

-Scott

 

[virometal]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnFerrier /img/forum/go_quote.gif (Pretty cool of the city to use this tribute.)

Heh, that's awesome.

 

[VicAjax]

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks, Vagabond. I see a relatively simple (and obvious) question that has a VERY COMPLICATED answer.

very interesting, markl (in my head, i pronounce your name "markle")...

there's a lot of truth in your post, but as you say... it's a VERY COMPLICATED answer, and i think there's more (and less) to it.

"post-punk" was actually being assimilated into the mainstream, major label jungle while "grunge" was still suckling at its momma's teat: R.E.M., Sonic Youth, The Replacements and Hüsker Dü all paved a very smooth path for the Seattle set as the first big indie rockers to sign with big houses. and the first two turned out to be very professional, reliable acts for majors and fans alike, churning out popular and (variably) edgy music. that's a .500 batting average, which, for the music biz, is phenomenal.

as i see it, the Seattle scene is a natural continuation of the mainstreaming of 80s post-punk. and what killed it is what kills any hyper-popular artform as it goes mainstream... it attracts copycats and pretenders, and the A&R guys can't tell them apart from the real thing. so it runs a cycle and dies a natural death, for the most part.

as for being out-of-control, both artistically and physically... i don't think that's anything new for the record companies. they've been dealing with unreliable partiers and junkies since the 50s.

 

[Homeless]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adolphe /img/forum/go_quote.gif For those who enjoy the history of music (I think all the posters in this thread do by the looks of things), I recommend listening to the History of New Music series. It's a syndicated radio show in Canada, produced in Toronto. Particular relevance to this thread are shows about Alice in Chains, several about nirvana (including episodes devoted to Kurt Cobain's death), Pearl Jam and Soundgarden. Listen, learn, and be enlightened! http://www.edge102.com/station/ongoi...ell=6743&pge=1 Btw, I figured I had to post given may avatar Oh there's also a show about the pop rock cycle. I forget if it has its own title, or if it's a part of another episode. Basically it talks about how Rock will peak and crash followed by a rising of pop. This has happened several times throughout music's history and Allan Cross goes through it in detail. -Scott

I love that show...Allan Cross is a very interesting dude. The two part series on TOOL was great.