What DAC, amp and headphone for the following 5 attributes

[kandamrgam]

Hello all,

Just stepping into the hi-fi space. I am now at the research phase

The main key attributes I want my headphone system to excel at are:

• Detail retrieval
• Instrument separation - like clarity between distinct sounds, which doesn't feel muddied at all. I think this is the most important for me
• Decay - I love those cymbol decays
• Imaging - more important than soundstage
• Black background - like absolutely pitch black

Could you suggest me a DAC, an amp and headphone to excel at those? I prefer a DAC/amp combo device but standalone is also fine.

Price range - DAC/amp collectively under 2500 and headphone under 2000. So collectively ~4000-5000 USD I guess, but I am open to price no bar options as well.

 

[dunring]

Sennheiser HD650 with a Topping A70Pro and E70 9028Pro DAC will do it, especially if you get an optical USB cable and hub or B adapter which makes the noise floor even more quiet (I measured before and after). The SMSL H400 and DO100 Pro DAC is another winner for detail and inky black noise floor. I prefer the Hifiman Edition XS, but the HD650 is epic.
I've had kilobuck headphones like the Dan Clark Stealth, Focal Utopia, HD800s and none of them are so much better to even come close to justifying their price tags. Same with DACs after $200, better putting it into an amplifier and two pairs of headphones that compliment and not compete with each other like the HD650 and Edition XS. Balanced cables will help stay in low gain mode on those amplifiers, with full power on the balanced side.

 

[fliz]

You have the same priorities I do. My sig shows my solution but its about double your budget. There are still some things worth drawing attention to.

For detail retrieval, nothing beats the ess sabre chipsets.

the 9038 are WAY better than the 9018. (I've never listened to the 9028)

The 9039 are a hair better than the 9038 but not enough to justify a large price difference (assuming the rest of the DAC implementation is identical).

for cans, detail retrieval means unforgiving. You want cans that most people complain about. This is why I went w/ the T90 (which are 1/10th of your budget).

The catch w/ a sabre + T90 setup is that it's SO unforgiving that the weaknesses in your analog stages will be extremely apparent. IME, anything solid state is basically unlistenable.

Finding a DAC with a well implemented tube based analog output stage is tricky. Most manufacturers use tubes for the wrong reasons. Your best bet is used if you want to stay within your budget.

Same deal for amp. Mine was $3k and I have zero upgraditis, but I'd say that's outside your budget. If you're spending $3k on an amp and $200 on cans, you only have $1800 left and IMO, that's not enough for an endgame DAC. Materials costs alone on mine hit that, and that's using cost cutting measures like starting w/ a pre-built chi-fi and the cheapest enclosure money can buy for the outboard power supply.

Maybe get the amp and the cans now, but go with a placeholder DAC. The upside of this arrangement is that when you audition DACs in the future, you're hearing them through your endgame amp and cans.

Another thing worth mentioning is that a maximally resolving rig will also reveal the differences between cables more than most, so you'll probably get bitten by that bug, too. You'd also benefit from a good power conditioner, but a bad one will make things worse, and you'll notice it.

 

[kandamrgam]

You have the same priorities I do. My sig shows my solution but its about double your budget. There are still some things worth drawing attention to.

For detail retrieval, nothing beats the ess sabre chipsets.

the 9038 are WAY better than the 9018. (I've never listened to the 9028)

The 9039 are a hair better than the 9038 but not enough to justify a large price difference (assuming the rest of the DAC implementation is identical).

for cans, detail retrieval means unforgiving. You want cans that most people complain about. This is why I went w/ the T90 (which are 1/10th of your budget).

The catch w/ a sabre + T90 setup is that it's SO unforgiving that the weaknesses in your analog stages will be extremely apparent. IME, anything solid state is basically unlistenable.

Finding a DAC with a well implemented tube based analog output stage is tricky. Most manufacturers use tubes for the wrong reasons. Your best bet is used if you want to stay within your budget.

Same deal for amp. Mine was $3k and I have zero upgraditis, but I'd say that's outside your budget. If you're spending $3k on an amp and $200 on cans, you only have $1800 left and IMO, that's not enough for an endgame DAC. Materials costs alone on mine hit that, and that's using cost cutting measures like starting w/ a pre-built chi-fi and the cheapest enclosure money can buy for the outboard power supply.

Maybe get the amp and the cans now, but go with a placeholder DAC. The upside of this arrangement is that when you audition DACs in the future, you're hearing them through your endgame amp and cans.

Another thing worth mentioning is that a maximally resolving rig will also reveal the differences between cables more than most, so you'll probably get bitten by that bug, too. You'd also benefit from a good power conditioner, but a bad one will make things worse, and you'll notice it.

Thank you for this, this is what I was looking for. I was checking at the prices for the Exemplar setup but it's a bit too steep for me. Thanks for mentioning T90, I will look into it.

 

[earmonger]

I've had only brief experience (CanJam visits) in the kilobuck range, so there may be something better up there in the $trato$phere. But I get superb timbre, clarity, separation and comfort from my trusty ATH-R70X, which were designed to improve on the HD650.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17535412/audio-technica-r70x-review-professional-headphones

They do need an amp, so put in some $$ there if you want and get a high-powered one. But as @dunring said, you can get technical near-perfection without the kilobucks. Tube amps by definition add distortion -- distortion that many listeners find pleasing and musical and warm, but less analytical. Depends on your tastes.

Neumann NDH30 is often recommended as another reference-quality headphone; I haven't heard them.

Out of curiosity, I just looked up the Beyer T90. Looks like they are a vintage model no longer sold. A new Ebay seller -- no feedback or other items, uh-oh -- claims to have a pair of the anniversary version for $250.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3654441657...K11YRT&hash=item55162b7095:g:LxEAAOSwJ6Nnyhfm

 

[Monsterzero]

You've received some good advice already, but I will add to the conversation by mentioning that there is the possibility of there being too much of a good thing. A revealing DAC feeding a revealing amp feeding a revealing headphone can be a very unpleasant listening experience for many people.

Also I'd recommend considering your source from where your music is coming from. PCs and laptops can generate a lot of noise, a lot of which might not be immediately noticeable. The higher the noise floor is the worse the detail, dynamics, layering and staging becomes.

 

[tesarpa]

My guess, according to @kandamrgam priorities, is that electrostatic headphones might be the right call. They offer everything required in first post. They do not usually offer strong impactful bass, but this is not listed in priorities. So I'd recommend to try some STAX setup, where I believe, for few thousands you can achieve very satisfactory results. I'd go this route too, but I'm definitely addicted to bass.

 

[ops V]

Shanling EM7 + Dan Clark Audio E3

 

[kandamrgam]

My guess, according to @kandamrgam priorities, is that electrostatic headphones might be the right call. They offer everything required in first post. They do not usually offer strong impactful bass, but this is not listed in priorities. So I'd recommend to try some STAX setup, where I believe, for few thousands you can achieve very satisfactory results. I'd go this route too, but I'm definitely addicted to bass.

Thank you. Is But estats require an energizer, right? Is there a STAX model + energizer that come under 5k?

 

[fliz]

I

Thank you. Is But estats require an energizer, right? Is there a STAX model + energizer that come under 5k?

just sold a SR-007mk1 and Blue Hawaii amp on here for much less than $5k, but you still need a DAC, too.

also, the Stax setup was dark compared to the T90/eXemplar setup I'm running now, which is why I sold it.

Earmonger is right that the T90 are no longer manufactured but since they were never very popular and replaced by the more expensive T1, they're an absolute steal when you find them used.

They pop up on ebay for $200 fairly often. I bought my pair on here for $300. The jubilee for $250 is a great deal. I'd dare say it's the best price : performance ratio possible in this hobby.

 

[tesarpa]

Thank you. Is But estats require an energizer, right? Is there a STAX model + energizer that come under 5k?

I'm not an expert on Stax models, but definitely yes, you can enter this river for much less. I shortly owned SR-L700 mk2 – fabulous sound, sold for under 1K used. Plus I had adapter to power electrostats from speaker amplifier, that was about 200 Eur used. I loved that sound, clarity, tonality, separation, detail, unobtrusive treble, great mids. But just not enough bass for me. I've heard about other electrostats boutique manufacturers who even has bass, but I have no direct experience. But bass might not be your priority anyway.

 

[matthia]

the 9038 are WAY better than the 9018. (I've never listened to the 9028)

The 9039 are a hair better than the 9038 but not enough to justify a large price difference (assuming the rest of the DAC implementation is identical).

Just for clarification:
When you talk about 9038/9039 do you mean PRO or Q2M?
Thanks

 

[fliz]

Just for clarification:
When you talk about 9038/9039 do you mean PRO or Q2M?
Thanks

the pro.

FWIW, I've heard near identical implementations with identical analog output stages, identical power supplies, and identical regulators where the *only* difference was using one es9038pro chip or two in a dual mono configuration and the difference was big enough for me to sell the 1 chip version and buy the 2 chip version on the spot.

I hate to throw out datasheet numbers because they never tell the whole story, but according to https://www.esstech.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/ES9038PRO-Datasheet-v3.7.pdf The difference in DNR is 140db for the dual mono vs 132db for the single chip.

8db is a lot, but it still "shouldn't" make as big a difference as it actually does. I mean, I usually listen to music in the 60 to 70 db range so... What.

Plenty of stuff in this hobby still baffles me.

 

[matthia]

es9038pro chip or two in a dual mono configuration

Do you have a recommendation for a DAC with dual mono ES9038(9)PRO up to a price of 2k?
Thanks

 

[fliz]

Do you have a recommendation for a DAC with dual mono ES9038(9)PRO up to a price of 2k?
Thanks

Unfortunately, no. I don't.

That chipset is a bit of a challenge to work with tbh. It's very ruthlessly revealing and if you dig into the reviews on here, you'll find examples of people complaining it's overly analytical. In order to really get it to perform at it's peak capabilities, you need a robust implementation. At that price point, you'll have to juggle compromises a bit.

I've found that using a less than stellar output stage, the chipset is fatiguing. If you want something at that price point that isn't fatiguing, it'd consider one of the many popular r2r dacs.

I had the opportunity to listen to my DAC before the analog output stage was replaced by the custom shunt regulated and actively loaded 6n6p output stage it currently has and I thought it was outright unlistenable.