What are the technical advantages of a balanced headphone amplifier?

Oct 21, 2005 at 11:31 PM Post #16 of 138
Quote:

Originally Posted by saint.panda
I just find it curious that it has become more important to go balanced instead of discussing how the amp actually sounds compared to another amp.


It's really important, as I was telling Trogdor in a PM the other night, if you make a mistake, these amps are expensive and you can count on taking a healthy loss when you sell them. And if you don't like how the amp sounds to begin with going balanced usually won't improve it (except in very rare cases).
 
Oct 21, 2005 at 11:50 PM Post #17 of 138
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens
This is exactly the thing I would expect to hear if my above statement were true. (He flips a coin in the air.) I didn't address what the diferences might be between particular amps because I wouldn't be allowed to, but also because I've got not nearly the ears-on time with other makers amp that many others here do.





The amp that PATB is referring to is my new SDS-XLR. With all respect to PATB, I'd have to strongly disagree with his characterization of the balanced v. single ended outputs on the amp. His listening session was somewhat brief and the amp was almost straight out of the box. I lived with a maxed MPX3 for a year and am very familiar with the sound of Mikhal's amps. I would say that the balanced output on the SDS-XLR has a very similar tonal quality to the MPX3, however the SDS-XLR is more refined, produces a wider soundstage and is significantly more dynamic. If I were to characterize the single ended output on the SDS-XLR, I would have to say it is a bit softer and certainly does not have the incredible dynamics of the balanced output.
 
Oct 21, 2005 at 11:52 PM Post #18 of 138
What about for an amp like the Raptor, MPX3 or the Supra? Obviously in most cases those are above the 1K mark, but do you think those are not worthy of their price and still would be unwise purchases due to diminishing returns? I know you mentioned tube amps as being murky, but speaking of specifics are those as subject to the flattening of the cuurve, despite the fact that they are tube and not SS?
 
Oct 22, 2005 at 12:46 AM Post #19 of 138
I want to chime in here quickly and say the amps you mention are fine amps and may sound killer in balanced mode my comments above notwithstanding. I've always just wondered about that particular phenomina.

In fact, when I start doing my own personal DIY stuff, I'm going to make a bunch of wierd balanced amps and I'd love to play with some tubes.
 
Oct 22, 2005 at 12:55 AM Post #20 of 138
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens
I want to chime in here quickly and say the amps you mention are fine amps and may sound killer in balanced mode my comments above notwithstanding. I've always just wondered about that particular phenomina.

In fact, when I start doing my own personal DIY stuff, I'm going to make a bunch of wierd balanced amps and I'd love to play with some tubes.



Is that directed to me or the poster above me? AFAIK, the Raptor and MPX3 are unbalanced and can not be configured as balanced along with Raptor. I'm aware of the law of diminishing returns and it's influence on consumer goods and placebo affect, but I'm curious, for gpalmers coments being that amps above 1K should defintely go balanced for it to be worth it and hear the most obvious improvements and differences. Admittedly so, I have never head a balanced amp, but I'm more curious as to if the amps that I have mentioned are ennsentially worth their price (subjective I realize) or if it's better to go with something different and balanced.

The comment was directed toward gpalmer specifically as he mentioned that. However I'd love to hear other opinions, especialy someone in the industry lke you, Tyll.
 
Oct 22, 2005 at 1:05 AM Post #21 of 138
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrJoshua
My Corda HA-1 MK2 has a weird kind of socket at the front that looks like it accepts both 1/4" Stereo plug and some kind of 3-pronged plug... Is this a balanced connector??


Sort of.

I think you are talking about the neutrik combo jack that my dynahi also had... it can be used for a balanced connection, but then there would be two of them and it likely would not function as a proper single ended connection at that point. Basically it is just a nice heavy duty 1/4" jack that looks cool.
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Oct 22, 2005 at 1:29 AM Post #22 of 138
I've posted this before but think it is relevant enough to go ahead and do so again. This is from Mick Maloney of Supratek, a highly respected amp builder.
http://supratek.biz/
http://supratek.biz/quest.htm
What I take from it is you only need balanced output, which saves you money, and that it is best to stay single ended, which I already knew.

Quote:

Balanced operation
I often get asked about the advantages of balanced operation-my reply is based on the following:

Balanced/unbalanced is a conentious subject. It comes from the pro audio world where they need it to balance out the noise pickup from very long cables.
True balance involves either using balancing transfomers or turning a Single Ended cicuit (as most preamps are) into a push pull circuit with double the components, circuitry etc- this is the only way to achieve "true" balanced throughout the preamp.
There's a lot of hype about it, with a lot of so called balanced operation being psuedo balanced, which is basically having an XLR socket wired to accept a balanced signal and turning it back to unbalanced.
Personally I prefer Single Ended operation every time- there's an ease and effortlesss about it, wheras true balanced sounds more electronic to me, especially the push pull types of operation.
One area where it is useful is in helping with RF noise in the big cities- it is not an isue for me in my country town isolation, but places like NY benefit from it and in my mind the best way to use balanced is to take it off the output transformer of a preamp, which fortunately we can do with the Supratek pres- it is true and perfect balanced with the minimum of circuitry to degrade the sound.
( there's virtually no circuitry!)
One balancing point in a preamp is all that is necessary- the output transformer turns the single ended circuit into a balanced circuit with two phases and the noise common to both channels (hum, RF etc) is greatly reduced.
Going for balanced throughout is sonic overkill that does more harm than good IMO- it has been a successful marketing campaign by some companies, but it is marketed to sell amps.

The Cortese,Sauvignon, Grange and Cabernet come standard with balanced/unbalanced outputs- there is a significant increase in quietness with the balanced output - but with the effortlessness and spatial presentation retained.


 
Oct 22, 2005 at 1:52 AM Post #23 of 138
Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23
What about for an amp like the Raptor, MPX3 or the Supra? Obviously in most cases those are above the 1K mark, but do you think those are not worthy of their price and still would be unwise purchases due to diminishing returns?


Nope, that's one of the reasons I pointed my comments very specifically toward solid-state amplfiers. To me, it seems tube amplifiers have a different price point for where the gains really start to slim out and it's higher but I haven't spent as much time with the tube contenders as I have with the solid state. Someone like Hirsch or SACD Lover would be more qualified to address them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFKMan23
I know you mentioned tube amps as being murky, but speaking of specifics are those as subject to the flattening of the cuurve, despite the fact that they are tube and not SS?


They sure are, the curve gets flatter and flatter once you get above the minimum level for any audio technology, you just have to decide where to stop. I think there are certain minimums to the quality of sound a person will find acceptable. For me personally, there is cheap gear I have owned which made noise but didn't sound good enough for me to enjoy so I just quit listening to music. Sure it was cheap but not a particularly good buy. That sort of set the minimums for me. Once you get over that minimum, it's all downhill on the bang for a buck scale the only difference is the rate at which it's falling!
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Oct 22, 2005 at 2:24 AM Post #24 of 138
Thanks for all the replies!

One of the biggest issues I'm having is what advantages do you have if your source still shares a common ground.

In other words, on my Apogee's balanced XLR output, if the common line actually has a some sort of signal on it, then I can see that a balanced amp would help. However, if the commons are ganged together back
inside the Apogee, it doesn't matter if they're split inside the headphone amp, they're effectively still shared. Right? In this case, what does balanced get me without having some sort of transformer that can feed the amp and take advantage of its balanced design a la timoteus's post.

Btw, I about to pull the trigger on a balanced amp but I am still trying to understand some of the technical aspects of going balanced.

Trogdor
 
Oct 22, 2005 at 3:03 AM Post #25 of 138
Quote:

Originally Posted by timoteus
This is from Mick Maloney of Supratek, a highly respected amp builder. What I take from it is you only need balanced output, which saves you money, and that it is best to stay single ended, which I already knew.


I think the issues we're talking about are really quite separate from his gripe with balanced audio equipment. He's a single ended tube amp maker, and for him there really is no need for the signal path from the source to the amp to have any balanced componants because he only needs a single ended for that type of amp. And I agree with him. But he also seems to be somewhat confusing why high end makes use balanced signals and why professional audio gear has balanced connections.

In the pro audio world where you need to hook up all sorts of gear all sorts of ways in sometimes wickedly dense mires of cable and electrical equipment. In this type of equipment it is common (or I probably should say was common as most things are digital these days) to take an internal single ended signal and run it through a 600ohm audio transformer to make it balanced signal (a normal signal, a miror image inverted signal, and a shield). On the recieving end there would also be one of these 600 ohm transformers recieving the balanced signal and convert it into a single ended signal by grounding one side of the secondary of the recieving transformer and picking the single ended signal of the other side of the tranformer secondary winding. The advantage of this type of signal transmittion is that any time the cable would pick up a stray inducted signal it would be that same on both sides of the balanced drive. But this common mode (same on both wires) signal can't flow through the recieving transformer primary winding it gets rejected and won't interfere with the balanced mode signal making through the wire and into the next box. THis is called "common mode rejection" and is very important in tranmission lines. There are other ways to get high common mode rejection , with differential input amps amps for example.

NOw in high-end, single-ended stereo systems there isn't nearly the problems with needing to send signal long distances past lots of stuss spewing our stray and noise electromagnic fields, so there isn't much need for balanced transmission line techniques for common mode rejection of noise. BUT! When it comes to gripping a speaker (or headphone driver) by the cahones and forcing it to do what you want using a balanced drive is just the ticket.

Usually a speaker has a hot lead and a ground lead. On a headphone you have a hot lead to each driver and a common return wire that is shared by the ground return currents of both drivers. With a balanced drive, both leads are "hot" with audio signal; one is the normal signal and one is an upsidedown mirror image of the normal signal. When one is going up the other is going down and vice versa. This means that the speaker coild is being driven from both it's leads in a push-pull fasion. (Push-pull is really a term usually resrved for a certain type of amplifier output technology, but it presents an apropriate picture here.) It's like driving one speaker with two amps: each amp sees half the load; because as one goes up the other goes down you get twice the slew rate; and your driving the speaker with twice the power. It's a good thing.

Back to the signal being turned unbalanced to balance in the gear. In audiophile gear this rearly happens. In a truly balanced audiophile system the signal is NEVER in an unbalanced mode. For example, in a balanced phono stage the two wires coming off one one channel of the cartrage coil are each sent through separate but identical sets of electronics stages. In other words any high end balanced piece of gear is basically a four channel audio device: left+; left-; right+; and right-. In high end digital to analog converters there are FOUR d-to-a converters, one each for the above channels. [not promotional] For example in our Home and Max Balanced amps our DAC option has four d-to-a chips so that it is truely a balanced amp.

So what about if you want to go from something that is single ended (has RCA connectors) tosomething that is balanced (XLR connectors which hav two signal wires and a ground. The cheap way is to put the signal through a tranformer and use the secondary leads as the +/- signals. Sure you can use some very expensive and exquisite transformers, but there are phase splitting circuits that don't make you have to deal with the messy inductive/capacitive problems of driving a transformer with extreme precision. But hear to, in the end you almost allways end up with a slightly less than perfect mirror image copy of the origional single ended signal. That's the real cost of a balanced headphone system: you not only have to cough up the bucks for double the headphone amp and custom cabled headphones, you also need to buy a truley balanced front end to make it worth while. Systems like this easily run into 5 figure price tags.


On a personal note: I swear if I keep writing posts like these I'm never going to hit supremous status. There should be a catagory high word count per post ratio and I swear I'd qualify for that one.
 
Oct 22, 2005 at 3:08 AM Post #28 of 138
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor
However, if the commons are ganged together back
inside the Apogee, it doesn't matter if they're split inside the headphone amp, they're effectively still shared. Right?



In unbalanced gear signal return currents flow through the shielding of the cables in the system, but in a balanced amp the two wires of the differential drive carry all signal currents and the only thing ground and shields do is provide a common reference point and a way to dump spurrious noise respectively.
 
Oct 22, 2005 at 3:14 AM Post #29 of 138
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens
It's like driving one speaker with two amps: each amp sees half the load; because as one goes up the other goes down you get twice the slew rate; and your driving the speaker with twice the power. It's a good thing.


Tyll one question. If one single-ended amp A has twice the power of another single-ended amp B, then the slew rate of A is also twice that of B? even though both A and B are single ended?

I'm asking because if so, and also if A is cheaper than 2 B's, there would be no clear benefit in going with a balanced configuration of 2 B's. At least taking into account just slew rates, power, and cost. (e.g. not really sound)
 
Oct 22, 2005 at 3:34 AM Post #30 of 138
Quote:

Originally Posted by rsaavedra
Tyll one question. If one single-ended amp A has twice the power of another single-ended amp B, then the slew rate of A is also twice that of B, even though both A and B are single ended?


Slew rate and power are two completely unrelated (mostly unrelated things). Power is the ability to dump tons of current out without overheating into maloperation the output devices. Well that's max power within the operating range. There also just the power limit of the think being simply voltage or current limited at some power lever with a particular resistance load. Power really doesn't tell you too much except the basic horse power the amp can drive. Slew rate is the amount of volts per second the amp can swing the load.

When I said "twice the power" above it was mor relative to the authority of drive in the interaction of two power amps on one driver.

The reason why they are marginally related is that it's harder to get big electronics devices to swing voltage as fast as small ones. (Solid state only) One reason among many, as an example, is that the large base (in transitors) and gate (in FETs) capacitances in power devices make it hard to get drive them into switching fast.

Since I'm being such a loud mouth tonight I should put out the disclaimer that I'm not an engineer, though I do understand the basics, but what I've said so far only describes the difficulties. Real audio engineers also have to understand and employ all sorts of techniques to combat and compromise with in producing amplifiers with high performance at various price points.
 

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