What are the benefit of Balance?
Mar 21, 2022 at 2:28 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 32

DarkDEV28

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Hey guy's I am wondering what the benefit of balance?

Because this all I understand about balance audio:
  • [Headphone] Supply more power, because of the increase number of contacts to allow efficient power transfer
  • Lower noise floor on mid tear to entry tear audio devices
  • Balance connection can offer a hotter signal, compare to it unbalance counter part
  • [Studio] Prevent any noise to be pickup by cables longer that 3 meters
My reason for asking this, is because I want to know if it worth investing into getting balance equipment for headphones. Also I am wondering why I can't find a studio grade equipment that offers a balance headphone out.
 
Mar 21, 2022 at 7:02 PM Post #2 of 32
Balanced cables as in studio XLR/TRS is not the same as Balanced as in headphone cables. In headphone cables it is meaningless, but maybe might include more power. In pro audio it runs a inverted signal over the extra pins and subtracts noise a the receiving unit. Good for long distances.
 
Mar 21, 2022 at 9:39 PM Post #3 of 32
If you're running cables for hundreds of feet, balanced is better. For most home use, balanced isn't really needed.
 
Mar 21, 2022 at 11:32 PM Post #4 of 32
Hey guy's I am wondering what the benefit of balance?

Because this all I understand about balance audio:
  • [Headphone] Supply more power, because of the increase number of contacts to allow efficient power transfer
  • Lower noise floor on mid tear to entry tear audio devices
  • Balance connection can offer a hotter signal, compare to it unbalance counter part
  • [Studio] Prevent any noise to be pickup by cables longer that 3 meters
My reason for asking this, is because I want to know if it worth investing into getting balance equipment for headphones. Also I am wondering why I can't find a studio grade equipment that offers a balance headphone out.

Balanced interconnections for Pro Audio is not to be mixed up with headphone's balanced connection. The purpose are different.

Balanced interconnections in pro audio is to improve noise and interference rejection over long distance connections.

Balanced connection for headphone is to double the voltage swing using the same supply voltage. This is useful for portable devices with low voltage battery supply. So it can achieve double the output voltage swing for low sensitivity headphones. Besides that it will also double the amplifier slew rate, not sure if this feature is audible. But not necessarily less noise, actually when you see balanced output specification from headphone amplifier it is usually has more noise floor due to dual amplifier design for positive and negative output.
 
Mar 22, 2022 at 5:00 PM Post #6 of 32
While it should not make a difference in headphones, it does seem like some products are designed around the balanced portion vs their SE, and thus have some kind of benefit. I have the Monolith by Monoprice THX DAC/AMP that has balanced and SE headphone out. The Meze 99 Classics sounded like different headphones, but the Hifiman He-400i (2017) were only louder with no discernable difference to the sound. And now that I've had the Burson conductor 3 vs 3x, I'm also seeing a difference in sound with high impedance stuff. Like the HD 8xx. Swapping the opamps around has a much bigger impact on the balanced output vs the SE.
 
Mar 23, 2022 at 1:57 AM Post #7 of 32
Thanks for the simply explanation with regards to balance cables for headphones, but now I am wonder if the benefit of "Studio Balance," applies to the In/Out of DAC's and AMP's? - (Also on non-studio speaker's, is balance the same as how it works headphones, or do they benefit from a balance connection?)
 
Mar 23, 2022 at 4:35 AM Post #8 of 32
Hey guy's I am wondering what the benefit of balance?

Because this all I understand about balance audio:
  • [Headphone] Supply more power, because of the increase number of contacts to allow efficient power transfer
  • Lower noise floor on mid tear to entry tear audio devices
  • Balance connection can offer a hotter signal, compare to it unbalance counter part
  • [Studio] Prevent any noise to be pickup by cables longer that 3 meters
My reason for asking this, is because I want to know if it worth investing into getting balance equipment for headphones. Also I am wondering why I can't find a studio grade equipment that offers a balance headphone out.

Some of your points are partially true. But as always the deeper you delve the more that comes out.

Firstly: balanced headphone (and speaker) drive. This, as has been said, is different to the line and mic connections in its benefits. It involves double the number of amplifiers, so adds cost. Speakers need to to go balanced (or bridged as it is usually called) at about 350W into 8 ohms and above in class B amps (class D amps higher), due to the safe operating area of the output transistors. Headphone amps there is no need, except that portable gear can be voltage limited, and balanced doubles the voltage. Where there is an advantage is where the ground connections no longer carry any signal, including inside the player. However, if the design is done well it doesn't really matter. The common return path in the headphone cable is a potential source of crosstalk, but it is benign in its nature.

Lower noise is not true, as two amplifiers are always noisier than one, if identical. The noise isn't double necessarily, but never lower. The signal to noise can be better, if the balanced signal is x2 or 6dB higher, and the noise is only 3dB higher, but this is a simplification of reality. The area where noise is lower, is in the line and mic connection, where extraneous noises picked up by the cable can be cancelled because the system rejects anything that isn't balanced, and the extraneous signals are not. It needs careful design to get best results, and is often misunderstood. A couple of fantastic papers by the great Bill Whitlock explain best practices, and his enlightened patent, are worth reading.

Balanced signals are often hotter, by design, but don't have to be. However the standards in pro audio generally allow much larger signals, so that unpredictable live signals don't get compressed until they hit the compressor. 16-20dB of headroom is often allowed.

Other benefits of balanced line connections can be the dumping of ground currents away from the audio. RCA single ended connections rely on the fact that there are no current flowing between units to mess up the audio. However in reality there always is. There is capacitance between the audio ground and the mains power. Good gear minimises this, but most is indifferent. Look at Apple laptops for bad example. In 230V countries you can feel the tingle on the metal chassis. Reverse the mains connector (if you can) and the tingling changes. These nasty signals will flow along the ground and mess up your sound. Balanced doesn't use the ground pin as a reference (or shouldn't. Some do and they are wrong) as it is a place to dump this into the chassis ground. Audio ground is separate. This is a significant benefit.
 
Mar 26, 2022 at 6:17 AM Post #9 of 32
At the risk of over complicating what was previously a good, simple explanation for the OP. (OP, you should ignore this post!)
However the standards in pro audio generally allow much larger signals, so that unpredictable live signals don't get compressed until they hit the compressor. 16-20dB of headroom is often allowed.
This quote is not really correct. Pro audio line level is just about SNR, not headroom for unpredictable live signals. Of course, SNR has a significant impact on the headroom required for unpredictable live signals between the mic pre-amp and recorder (or compressor) but it doesn’t for the rest of the audio chain, because the signal is no longer unpredictable, it’s known. But of course SNR is still potentially an issue, even though headroom isn’t, which is why we use balanced interconnects throughout the chain, not just that one part of it.

G
 
Mar 29, 2022 at 5:28 AM Post #10 of 32
At the risk of over complicating what was previously a good, simple explanation for the OP. (OP, you should ignore this post!)

This quote is not really correct. Pro audio line level is just about SNR, not headroom for unpredictable live signals. Of course, SNR has a significant impact on the headroom required for unpredictable live signals between the mic pre-amp and recorder (or compressor) but it doesn’t for the rest of the audio chain, because the signal is no longer unpredictable, it’s known. But of course SNR is still potentially an issue, even though headroom isn’t, which is why we use balanced interconnects throughout the chain, not just that one part of it.

G
Then why is there still 16-20dB headroom built in on the output of the mixing desk? So do the inputs to powered PA, and other active speakers. Things get unpredictable and you need as much unclipped headroom as you can get so the DSP limiters get a clean signal to react to.

OP: you should read whatever you like. Do not be pushed around by the residents here. It appears they don't get out much.
 
Mar 29, 2022 at 9:03 AM Post #11 of 32
Then why is there still 16-20dB headroom built in on the output of the mixing desk?
Err, there isn’t. Digital/Virtual desks have no headroom, the max level is 0dBFS. Old analogue desks did have headroom (above 0VU), so one could see how much an analogue signal was likely to be affected by analogue effects, such as tape saturation.
Things get unpredictable and you need as much unclipped headroom as you can get so the DSP limiters get a clean signal to react to.
No, DSP limiters do not need any headroom at all, nor do they need a clean signal to react to. In fact limiters are almost always fed a signal that has already been compressed. Also, as the name suggests, “limiters” limit the output level, so that obviously makes the output even more predictable, that’s the whole point of a limiter in the first place!

G
 
Mar 29, 2022 at 9:09 PM Post #12 of 32
Err, there isn’t. Digital/Virtual desks have no headroom, the max level is 0dBFS. Old analogue desks did have headroom (above 0VU), so one could see how much an analogue signal was likely to be affected by analogue effects, such as tape saturation.

No, DSP limiters do not need any headroom at all, nor do they need a clean signal to react to. In fact limiters are almost always fed a signal that has already been compressed. Also, as the name suggests, “limiters” limit the output level, so that obviously makes the output even more predictable, that’s the whole point of a limiter in the first place!

G
Nonsense.

The anaolgue signal out of a mixer is usually corresponding to 0dBFS=20-24dBu, making the reference of 0dBV or 4dBu (depends on standards/manufacturer) equivalent to around -20dBFS. This is still headroom.

Digital compressors need to take a signal larger than their output (assuming a simple downward compression) if it is to do its job. Take an example of a 4:1 compression set at 0dBu. An input of 8dBu will output 2dBu, 16dBu will output 4dBu. etc. If there is not enough headroom it will just hard limit. There are many other examples of compressor and limiter, but we need to allow for the user to have some freedom.
 
Mar 30, 2022 at 12:03 AM Post #13 of 32
Inbetween the overdriven signal from the microphone and the analog output with headroom is the digital process, which can't tolerate any overdriving without clipping. How would headroom on the output of a digital mixing board work? Overdriving the mic won't make it through to overdrive the analog output. Digital can't go past zero. What would the headroom be protecting against? Maybe the answer is in your second paragraph. I'm not up on that kind of stuff.
 
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Mar 30, 2022 at 4:50 AM Post #14 of 32
Inbetween the overdriven signal from the microphone and the analog output with headroom is the digital process, which can't tolerate any overdriving without clipping. How would headroom on the output of a digital mixing board work? Overdriving the mic won't make it through to overdrive the analog output. Digital can't go past zero. What would the headroom be protecting against? Maybe the answer is in your second paragraph. I'm not up on that kind of stuff.
Simple answer: EQ. The user adds a bass boost, it will go above the original signal. So you have to have headroom above that. If you are working live, you cannot have the output signal go down to accommodate that. There are plenty of other more complex DSP effect which add signal.

0dBFS in the digital domain needs to be including the headroom.

(Took you off ignore there to see what's up. It was a sensible question)
 
Mar 30, 2022 at 5:12 AM Post #15 of 32
Isn’t EQ usually applied subtractively in the digital domain to avoid clipping? It would have to stay under zero if it’s digital. For analog headroom to be effective you’d need analog signal processing pushing it over zero. Anything digital would clip wouldn’t it? Do professional sound studios use analog sweetening past the digital stage? That wouldn’t be EQ. It would be wire reverbs or slap backs. That’s pretty specialized, and I’d bet most studios would just use a DSP to do those effects digitally.
 
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