[Uncledan]

When I look for new source, I see balanced output and XLR output, what is that mean? What is the different between them with normal RCA output? They sounds better???

(Newbie question

)

 

[gpalmer]

The balanced output will allow you to run longer lengths of wire without picking up interference. It will also require you to have an amplifier that accepts balanced inputs which are much less common than RCA hookups. If you're in a high noise area or you own a blockhead you should definately think about it, otherwise it's probably overkill.

 

[Edwood]

Aren't XLR outputs synonymous with balanced ouputs?

XLR has three signals (wires). Sound frequency is split into two, and there is one for ground. Kind of like the difference between composite video and S-Video.

My Muse Model 2 DAC has balanced XLR outputs. It's itching for a headphone amp with balanced XLR inputs.

Hmmmm. Doesn't the Grace 901 have those?

Although it does have an internal DAC too. That Amp sure is a Swiss Army Knife.

-Ed

 

[tom hankins]

The balanced outputs are more powerful also. They have produced a very noticable increase in sound quality over the rca's on the three occasions I've got to compare head to head.

 

[lini]

Uncledan: Do you happen to know the principle behind differential scsi, by chance? It's the same for symmetrical/balanced xlr outputs: Instead of only having signal and ground, you have signal, inverted signal and ground - thus external interference over the cable can simply be cancelled out on the receiving end. For most home rigs (with comparatively short cables and not that many devices involved), that kind of interference is not much of a problem, though...

Sonically, I can't think of any real reason, why one should be better than the other (apart from interference handling) - it all depends on the actual implementation. Nevertheless, if both types of output are present on a piece of audio equipment, there's a good chance that xlr will sound better than cinch, because it makes sense for the manufacturer to put more effort into the theoretically superior xlr output.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[Mastergill]

I don't agree with that. If you don't have to run long cables stay away from balanced/XLR output. Those output are working with extra electronic stage or small trafos that ultimately can add some coloration in the sound.
Less is more.

 

[Uncledan]

Quote:

Originally posted by lini Uncledan: Do you happen to know the principle behind differential scsi, by chance? It's the same for symmetrical/balanced xlr outputs: Instead of only having signal and ground, you have signal, inverted signal and ground - thus external interference over the cable can simply be cancelled out on the receiving end. For most home rigs (with comparatively short cables and not that many devices involved), that kind of interference is not much of a problem, though... Sonically, I can't think of any real reason, why one should be better than the other (apart from interference handling) - it all depends on the actual implementation. Nevertheless, if both types of output are present on a piece of audio equipment, there's a good chance that xlr will sound better than cinch, because it makes sense for the manufacturer to put more effort into the theoretically superior xlr output. Greetings from Munich! Manfred / lini

Does it mean balanced out = XLR outputs? And there are no such thing like balanced RCA?

Also, what does Single Ended mean?

Thanks for all the respone.

 

[lan]

Balanced needs 3 wires so RCA can't be balanced since it has only 2. RCA is single ended.

XLR is just a connector type. It can be wired in different ways. It's uses doesn't have to be only balanced but in audio applications the 3 pin usually is.

 

[AndreYew]

Quote:

Originally posted by Uncledan When I look for new source, I see balanced output and XLR output, what is that mean? What is the different between them with normal RCA output? They sounds better???

It all depends on implementation which one sounds better, because there are plenty of ways to screw up either. All else being equal, balanced is always preferable to unbalanced.

Some basic things:

1. XLR refers to the physical connector, while balanced refers to the electrical signalling scheme. XLR for balanced typically has 3 pins on the inside and a metal outer shell. Here's a jack:

Here's what goes on one end of a cable:

The gender of the connector determines whether it's an output or input. Male jacks output, and female jacks accept input. Also, because of this, the female end of a cable plugs into the output, and the male cable end plugs into the input.

2. Balanced output means, technically, that the common-mode impedances of the interface are balanced, ie. equal. Very often, pins 2 and 3 of the XLR also carry opposite-polarity signals, but this is not necessary. The reason the CM impedances are equal is so that the receiving interface can cancel noise that's common on the wires.

Balanced transmission requires two signal conductors, and can, and has, been implemented with two pairs of RCA connectors (which only has one signal conductor), but this is non-standard, and mechanically inferior, as we will see. Unbalanced typically means one signal conductor, and one ground conductor. A balanced connection doesn't need a ground conductor, but pin 1 is typically used to connect chassis ground (not signal ground!).

3. Balanced XLR connections have several important advantages:

a. They are mechanically secure, compared to RCAs. There is a positive lock with XLRs when you have a good connection, whereas RCA connections had hacks like super-tight, possibly damaging sleeves to ensure mechanical security.

b. XLRs make ground connections first, and break them last, which means you can hot-plug them with no pops or funny noises. RCAs typically make signal first (the middle pin sticks out farther than the shell), and can causes pops, hums, etc. when you're hot-plugging --- just like the electric guitarists who plug their TRS connectors in with the speakers on. Neutrik makes an excellent RCA connector with a spring-loaded shell that can be hot-plugged, and it's well worth the money if you're making your own cables:

Here's the shell retracted when it's plugged into a socket:

c. As others have mentioned, balanced interconnections are immune to noise, specifically common-mode noise. CM noise is noise that impinges on all conductors similarly. However, a relatively unknown advantage of balanced I/O is their ability to get rid of ground loops and ground noises, because unlike RCAs, they do not have to tie chassis ground to signal ground. You don't need long runs of cables to get this advantage. Because of this separation of grounds, using balanced I/O also makes a device more cable-tolerant --- you shouldn't hear as much differences between cables, and that's a good thing.

4. Balanced I/O can be implemented in any number of ways, including electronic balancing, or transformers, or both combined. Transformers will give you the best rejection and isolation, but is a bit more expensive, especially if you use good audio transformers (eg. Jensen Transformers).

There is a common audiophile myth that balanced I/O is useful only when a device is "fully balanced" (or more correctly termed, differential) internally. This is false. The only job of a balanced interface is to cancel common-mode noise as close as possible to the input so that it doesn't get into the rest of the device. Once CM noise is inside a device, it's extremely hard to get rid of it. So it is entirely possible to have a device that's not internally differential or balanced, and take full advantage of balanced I/O. There are good reasons for using differential circuits, but they are entirely unrelated to balanced I/O.

--Andre

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mastergill I don't agree with that. If you don't have to run long cables stay away from balanced/XLR output. Those output are working with extra electronic stage or small trafos that ultimately can add some coloration in the sound. Less is more.

MasterGill,

Like all things, it depends upon the design of the source. In my case, the Electrocompaniet is made to run balanced, and has less electronics in the balanced outputs than the single ended ones. In order to run the single ended outputs the signal has to be unbalanced, thus adding more to it than the balanced outputs. After trying out several balanced and single ended cables I can say that this particular unit has a definite advantage to running the outputs balanced. The sound coming out of the balanced outputs is more dynamic and sounds uncompressed when compared to the single ended. upon switching over to single ended ICs the sound got compressed sounding, lost the dynamics, and sounded a bit less lively. This is only because this unit is a fully balanced design which was meant to run balanced. The RCA outs are not as good and add more to the signal path.



Daniel,

Balanced means just that: balanced. The signal is run in such a way as to remove noise from the signal due to the nature of a balanced signal. It compares the inverted and standard signal, rejecting anything that is not common to both of them, ie noise or RFI/EMI junk. I believe this is called common mode noise rejection, or something along those lines.

If you have a source that is designed to run in balanced mode, it will sound best in balanced mode. If it takes the single ended signal and later balances it, the sound will be better from the single ended RCA outputs. It all depends upon the actual design of the source, not on a universal concept of balanced units have more in the signal path, therefore they don't sound as good. Look at the actual design of the unit, then determine which one sounds better by design and to your ears.

Single ended may have to do with how the signal ends in one item - the center pin of the RCA cable. A single ended is distinguished from a balanced since the balanced has three pins, the single ended has only one, thus single ended.

 

[NeoVibe]

this thread answered many questions I had until today. thanks a lot AndreYew and ServinginEcuador

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Quote:

Originally posted by NeoVibe this thread answered many questions I had until today. thanks a lot AndreYew and ServinginEcuador

My pleasure NeoVibe. I was totally confused until I looked into getting a balanced unit about 8 months ago. I searched and searched for info on balanced sources and amps, and learned a little along the way, but need to look more into this subject. There is a lot more to know than my surface treatise of the subject, but it will get you started into looking into it more yourselves.

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally posted by Mastergill I don't agree with that. If you don't have to run long cables stay away from balanced/XLR output. Those output are working with extra electronic stage or small trafos that ultimately can add some coloration in the sound. Less is more.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. After all, it is very clear in the Video world, that more separation is better. With composite you have one signal. S-Video has two. Component has three.

Although, correct me if I'm wrong, does balanced XLR separate the signal into two parts? Or is it just running an identical signal in an inverted phase to help reduce interferance?

Of course, balanced inputs may be overkill in anyone's application. Always best to do an A/B comparison, as it will ultimately be your own personal tastes that will decide in the end.

-Ed

 

[lini]

Edwood: That's a bit of a difference - for s-video, chroma and luma signals are carried separately, whereas for balanced audio cabling, there's indeed only one original signal. Where the actual signal doubling happens, depends on the individual implementation.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[ServinginEcuador]

Here's a blurb from the MOON Audio website on one of their amps: Quote:

When using an unbalanced interconnect, the audio signal runs through both the center wire and the shield/ground wire. Any noise picked up by this interconnect (ie. nearby magnetic fields such as an AC power cord) will be reproduced by the amplifier and heard through the loudspeakers. Conversely, a balanced interconnect has three separate conductors; one for the ground and two for the actual signal. These two signals are identical except that one is 180 degrees out of phase with the other. For example, when one conductor is carrying a signal of +5 Volts, the other will be carrying a signal of –5 Volts. When these two inverted signals on a balanced line are input into a differential power amplifier such as the MOON Rock, any noise picked up by the interconnect will be eliminated since a differential circuit amplifies only the difference between these two signals: Noise on a balanced interconnect will be equal on both conductors and therefore not be processed.

Sounds pretty straight forward and easy to understand to me.