What about the mastering of the new RHCP album, I'm With You?

[gregorio]

Hey,
 
Just a quick question here.
 
How do I "detect" the noise floor or noise level in recordings?
 
What does the noise floor sound like?
 
I'm listening to Trivium (down from the sky) right now and I'm hearing a little bit of white noise/static or something during the chorus.
 
Cymbals or noise floor?

We often call the noise floor (hiss) white noise because that is what it sounds like, even if technically it's not quite random. Noise floor is made up from a lot of different sources. There is the digital noise floor (which truly is white noise) caused by an essential digital audio process (dither). However, this digital noise floor is not really much of an issue in reality because it is much lower in level than other sources of noise. Most noise comes from the transducers at either end of the chain, the mic and the speaker in the playback chain. How much noise comes from the mic depends on the model of mic, where it is positioned relative to the sound source (musician) and the acoustics of the recording space. Quite commonly these days, noise and clipping distortion (static like sound) is caused by inexperienced (and uneducated) recording engineers and producers who know little about correct gain staging. Cymbals, is a good example to pick because cymbals produce a lot of random frequencies (in the decay of the sound) which appears almost indistinguishable from white noise. So where does the cymbal sound end and the noise floor begin, no simple way of knowing. White noise is quite different to static. My guess is that the chorus of the song was recorded with the gain staging not quite right and the producer has had to raise the level significantly to get it to balance with the verses. In the process the noise floor has been increased and also maybe some digital clipping (overload) introduced. If this is the case, that's some rather poor recording and production skills but remember, this is just a guess.

Why are film mixes in general still a pretty good standard? I mean most people would be using TV speakers and the standard of audio equipment at your local cinema isn't all that great.

Film is a completely different kettle of fish to music. Much more powerful systems required than in music and much higher average skill level of audio professions, because the technology and equipment is far more expensive and complex. No kids in bedrooms mixing feature films (yet)! Films are mixed in Dub Stages (also called Dubbing Theatres). Dub stages are designed to be acoustically the same as cinemas and there are many construction guidelines (Dolby and THX for example) to help ensure that they are as identical as possible. All cinemas are calibrated at the same level as dub stages (1kHz @ -20dBFS = 85dBC), the volume (and frequency response) in the cinema should be the same as the volume in the dub stage and therefore no mastering engineer is required. This also means NO compression is required to compensate for listening on a car radio or to account for different sound systems or to maximise volume and therefore NO loudness war! TV is a bit different to film but again the loudness war has to an extent been avoided by very strict delivery specifications for the sound and broadcasters themselves have to conform to legal restrictions in sound broadcast levels. These level requirements use quite sophisticated variations of RMS (averaging) measurements so compression cannot be used to get around the limit of peak levels, like it is in music and therefore little over-compression or loudness war.

Hope these answers aren't too technical and make sense.

G

 

[LFF]

Quote:

We often call the noise floor (hiss) white noise because that is what it sounds like, even if technically it's not quite random. Noise floor is made up from a lot of different sources. There is the digital noise floor (which truly is white noise) caused by an essential digital audio process (dither). However, this digital noise floor is not really much of an issue in reality because it is much lower in level than other sources of noise. Most noise comes from the transducers at either end of the chain, the mic and the speaker in the playback chain. How much noise comes from the mic depends on the model of mic, where it is positioned relative to the sound source (musician) and the acoustics of the recording space. Quite commonly these days, noise and clipping distortion (static like sound) is caused by inexperienced (and uneducated) recording engineers and producers who know little about correct gain staging. Cymbals, is a good example to pick because cymbals produce a lot of random frequencies (in the decay of the sound) which appears almost indistinguishable from white noise. So where does the cymbal sound end and the noise floor begin, no simple way of knowing. White noise is quite different to static. My guess is that the chorus of the song was recorded with the gain staging not quite right and the producer has had to raise the level significantly to get it to balance with the verses. In the process the noise floor has been increased and also maybe some digital clipping (overload) introduced. If this is the case, that's some rather poor recording and production skills but remember, this is just a guess.



Film is a completely different kettle of fish to music. Much more powerful systems required than in music and much higher average skill level of audio professions, because the technology and equipment is far more expensive and complex. No kids in bedrooms mixing feature films (yet)! Films are mixed in Dub Stages (also called Dubbing Theatres). Dub stages are designed to be acoustically the same as cinemas and there are many construction guidelines (Dolby and THX for example) to help ensure that they are as identical as possible. All cinemas are calibrated at the same level as dub stages (1kHz @ -20dBFS = 85dBC), the volume (and frequency response) in the cinema should be the same as the volume in the dub stage and therefore no mastering engineer is required. This also means NO compression is required to compensate for listening on a car radio or to account for different sound systems or to maximise volume and therefore NO loudness war! TV is a bit different to film but again the loudness war has to an extent been avoided by very strict delivery specifications for the sound and broadcasters themselves have to conform to legal restrictions in sound broadcast levels. These level requirements use quite sophisticated variations of RMS (averaging) measurements so compression cannot be used to get around the limit of peak levels, like it is in music and therefore little over-compression or loudness war.

Hope these answers aren't too technical and make sense.

G

 
Excellent post G and you took the time (which I didn't) to explain the 85db theater standard.
 
Gosh...I wish music had a similar standard.....

 
 

 

[gregorio]

Excellent post G and you took the time (which I didn't) to explain the 85db theater standard.
 
Gosh...I wish music had a similar standard.....

Thanks.

There have been a few attempts to introduce standards (like the film or TV standards) to music by audio professionals but they have always been blocked by the industry :rolleyes:

Heaven forbid that producers would have to appreciate correct gain staging, have calibrated rooms and not just hide every weakness by compressing it all to death!

G

 

[Rip N' Burn]

I wonder if there will be a vinyl release for 'I'm with you' like there was with 'stadium arcadium' which sounded much better than the cd version.

 

[Iniamyen]

If you've ever been watching TV movie channel and there's a commercial that comes outta nowhere and blows out your speakers, that might be an example of the same phenomenon creeping in =)
 
I don't have any professional expertise in this area but just from a philosophical opinion standpoint, the trend may be because people still expect "realism" in their movies. Home theater sales have always been geared toward "realism" and "immersion," with surround sound, DVD (and now Blu-Ray), etc... whereas with music, it's another step removed from reality, and maybe people just care about the nature of the noise coming into their ears. Maybe they like "loud" because it's become more about blocking the outside world, rather than being transported to the concert hall of the recording.

 

[gregorio]

If you've ever been watching TV movie channel and there's a commercial that comes outta nowhere and blows out your speakers, that might be an example of the same phenomenon creeping in =)

In a way but not quite. In film, the playback system and environment is a known quantity (cinema) so a much larger dynamic range can be employed and compression isn't used much. In TV the playback system and environment is not known and therefore a lesser dynamic range must be employed, so even those with noisy sitting rooms and poor TVs can hear the detail. So TV sound specifications allows for the use of more compression. When you are listening to a movie on TV and then you hear the commercials you are a certain extent hearing the difference between the conventions. This answer is a little simplified but essentially true. Sometimes you hear a bit of a difference between TV commercials and a TV program. This is due to the fact that the advertisers desperately want their commercial louder than anyone else's but are constrained by the specification limits, any difference you are hearing is the commercials pushing the limits as far as they can while the program makers are usually a little more conservative.

The loudness wars started with radio, when music labels worked out that people liked and bought the loudest tracks. the same thing would happen with TV commercials if it were not for the specifications.

G

 

[dobyblue]

I like the list, what I like even more is guys like Steve Hoffman that do stand up for what they believe in.
 
Bob Ludwig is not always in this boat. The mastering of telephantasm boxset is just awful, especially the vinyl. Is this the guy that did so many reference vinyl pressings of Zeppelin? The mastering on DMB's "Everyday" is why he sometimes, and unfairly I'm sure, was known as Brickwall Bob. Having said that I do appreciate the attention he brought to the loudness wars on his own website with the article on Chinese Democracy.
 
This new RHCP album has absolutely awful mastering, right up there with Californication in terms of drc.
 
Please don't consider this an attempt to pimp my own review, because I'd rather you not vote than think that, but Amazon moves a crapload of units of movies and music these days and if this review keeps enough "helpful" votes then it remains at the top section of reviews in the "most helpful critical" which I think gives it more exposure and its clear with ongoing 3/4dB releases that we need all the help we can get - http://www.amazon.com/review/ROGUY7PAKSMRU/
 
It was at the top...but there are people so emotionally attached to their band they just can't help but vote against anything regardless of how unbiased or impartial it is.
 
My review of Telephantasm continues to sit at the top and has lots of great comments in it from people agreeing and being grateful they didn't waste $100+ on sonic garbage. Seriously, anyone unfortunate enough to pick up the Telephantasm vinyl knows what I'm talking about. The difference between the Badmotorfinger tracks and the original CD or the German 2003 vinyl pressing (320 stamper) is brutal.

 

[wrathzombie]

I'm with you is a horrible record( from mastering point of view).
Also, Frusciante is missed big time. Not only from the perspective of being a cool guitarist but also as a back-up vocalist.
However, the album is quite satisfactory.
 
 
 
 

 

[psgarcha92]

@WrathZombie, i totally agree to that. All through Stadium Arcadium, there would be Frusciante's Solos or guitar riffs that just blew u away. Sometimes u wonder if it is the guitar only or some other instrument.......would have loved having him on the guitar in I'm With You For sure. Josh sure plays well, but Frusciante is Frusciante. Even on his recordings while he used to be wasted (post Blood Sugar Sex Magic and Pre Californication) the guitar he plays is art.

 

[leng jai]

Stadium Arcadium had so many epic instrumental sections it was insane.

 

[psgarcha92]

Quote:

Stadium Arcadium had so many epic instrumental sections it was insane.

Exactly. here in college everyone is a fan of Slash and dot give a chance to RHCP and Frusciante, but to me, Slash just makes the Guitar scream, while Frusciante, he does Magic with it.
At Slane Castle, the riffs Frusciante played, are masterpieces. When they played californication there, the guitar prior to it, the transition into the song, then into the roaring crowd. all is so awesome with the Chili Peppers with Frusciante as a part of the Group. Stadium Arcadium was Epic.

 

[Eee Pee]

I was listening to the Tom Waits album Swordfishtrombones, from 1983, and read the back of the jewel case and though of this thread.
 
"The music on this Compact Disc was originally recorded on analog equipment.  We have attempted to preserve, as closely as possible, the sound of the original recording.  Because of its high resolution, however, the Compact Disc can reveal limitations of the source tape."
 
Island Records, Inc.
 
Eh, maybe I was thinking of the record vs CD thread...  

 

[LFF]

Quote:

I was listening to the Tom Waits album Swordfishtrombones, from 1983, and read the back of the jewel case and though of this thread.
 
"The music on this Compact Disc was originally recorded on analog equipment.  We have attempted to preserve, as closely as possible, the sound of the original recording.  Because of its high resolution, however, the Compact Disc can reveal limitations of the source tape."
 
Island Records, Inc.
 
Eh, maybe I was thinking of the record vs CD thread...  

No...it can apply here. That "warning" is usually a sign of good quality for me.
 

 

[julianbell92]

LFF, thanks for your great posts on this thread, likewise gregorio, it's been extremely helpful for me to expand my understanding of the topic.
 
LFF, after several re-reads of the whole thread, I, like khaos974, still could not work out where you obtained the uncompressed master of factory of faith? Is it from your friend, the sound engineer who offers the choice of two masters, one heavily compressed and one mastered well? I understand if you cannot say for professional or confidentiality reasons.
 
Also has anyone tried the vinyl copy recently released? It is also mastered by Vlado Meller but I was hoping it might be a less compressed version. I started a thread on it earlier today: http://www.head-fi.org/t/577949/mastering-on-the-vinyl-edition-of-rhcps-im-with-you#post_7857284

 

[LFF]

Quote:

LFF, thanks for your great posts on this thread, likewise gregorio, it's been extremely helpful for me to expand my understanding of the topic.

My pleasure! Always happy to help.
Quote:

LFF, after several re-reads of the whole thread, I, like khaos974, still could not work out where you obtained the uncompressed master of factory of faith? Is it from your friend, the sound engineer who offers the choice of two masters, one heavily compressed and one mastered well? I understand if you cannot say for professional or confidentiality reasons.

It really doesn't matter....
 
Quote:

Also has anyone tried the vinyl copy recently released? It is also mastered by Vlado Meller but I was hoping it might be a less compressed version. I started a thread on it earlier today: http://www.head-fi.org/t/577949/mastering-on-the-vinyl-edition-of-rhcps-im-with-you#post_7857284

Here is an important note:
 
If you see the name "Vlado Meller" as any type of credit on any release on any media (LP, download, CD, mini disc, etc) you can bet your money it's going to be utter crap.
 
Vlado Meller and Bob Norberg are names I always avoid, and IMHO, are a true disgrace to the mastering/sound engineering profession.
 
That said, a friend of mine bought the vinyl and I had a listen. It's utter crap. I wouldn't be surprised if the CD master was used for the vinyl.