Watts Up...?

Apr 28, 2018 at 4:50 AM Post #841 of 5,075
Thanks the oppo pm1 sounds fantastic with the adaptor. There is no other way but to use it. The metal contacts are all shining as new so hopefully no real degradation.

listening to birth of the cool miles davis//roon
 
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Apr 28, 2018 at 5:02 AM Post #842 of 5,075
It's not that controversial! After all, copper oxide is diodic, and oxides or impurities on metal to metal interfaces add small signal non-linearity - and I have been able to measure this using 8 ohm loads, in that my DAC/amps have such low distortion that dirty contacts are easily measurable in terms of distortion. So for sure it is a real and measurable effect.

Is this not also a problem with connection leads for devices like the APx555, that are doing the measuring?
 
Apr 28, 2018 at 5:31 AM Post #843 of 5,075
You can get measurement problems when amps start to move around - I have not seen directly any measurement issues with interconnects when it is just a milli-amp or so of signal current flowing. And the AP currents are milli-amps only. Of course, depth and detail resolution problems are audible with extremely small errors that would be un-measurable anyway...
 
Apr 28, 2018 at 5:42 AM Post #844 of 5,075
You can get measurement problems when amps start to move around - I have not seen directly any measurement issues with interconnects when it is just a milli-amp or so of signal current flowing. And the AP currents are milli-amps only. Of course, depth and detail resolution problems are audible with extremely small errors that would be un-measurable anyway...

Not wishing to step too near a cliff-edge, when I lack a large enough intellectual parachute, but I can't help wondering what wonders AI and quantum computing may bring to both sides of this equation, in the coming years.

Vastly increased digital audio precision, and vastly increased measurement precision (possibly with some unbelievably powerful heuristic abilities on top of that, to compensate for vagaries of interconnect performance) seem probable.
 
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Apr 28, 2018 at 7:00 AM Post #845 of 5,075
Not wishing to step too near a cliff-edge, when I lack a large enough intellectual parachute, but I can't help wondering what wonders AI and quantum computing may bring to both sides of this equation, in the coming years.

Vastly increased digital audio precision, and vastly increased measurement precision (possibly with some unbelievably powerful heuristic abilities on top of that, to compensate for vagaries of interconnect performance) seem probable.

Well we can stop worrying about ferries on digital interconnects when we can achieve avoiding decoherence at scale! That will beat optical...:-)

Unless another insight into an applicable quantum algorithm is achieved, I don’t see other benefits on quantum.


No thoughts on AI from me.
 
Apr 28, 2018 at 10:04 PM Post #846 of 5,075
@robwatts

Hi Rob,

Regarding directly driving high efficiency speakers with DAVE.
How does the damping factor of the amplifier in DAVE determine the wire gauge required?
Would 28AWG seen in your typical RCA interconnect suffice and how does length modify this?

Cheers,

Geoff
 
Apr 29, 2018 at 2:41 AM Post #847 of 5,075
No that would have too high a resistance - about 0.24 ohms per M.

I would go for certainly less than 0.1 ohms in total, and even lower resistance would sound tighter in the bass, with a faster sense of tempo. 14AWG with 10 feet would be 0.05 ohms.
 
Apr 29, 2018 at 3:01 AM Post #848 of 5,075
@robwatts

Hi Rob,

Regarding directly driving high efficiency speakers with DAVE.
How does the damping factor of the amplifier in DAVE determine the wire gauge required?
Would 28AWG seen in your typical RCA interconnect suffice and how does length modify this?

Cheers,

Geoff

I talked to a designer of high efficiency speakers about this last year and his view was that you were only starting with a few watts and so he would use as thick as possible in order to have the least resistance and thereby the lowest losses. 28gauge is very thin and whilst that is not so much of a problem for an interconnect where very little current is the norm it is not suitable to carry a current over several metres, even with high efficiency speakers.

Like RW I would suggest something thicker but I might even try 12AWG or 10AWG. It shouldn’t be too difficult to make up some test cables. The configuration of the cable will also affect capacitance and inductance and that will also have a bearing on the sound.
 
Apr 30, 2018 at 4:14 PM Post #849 of 5,075
It seems the Chord DAC was superseded a bit by the Benchmark DAC3 HGC D/A in Stereophile's Oct. 2017 bench tests (Measurements) :
https://www.stereophile.com/content...preamplifier-headphone-amplifier-measurements

Here are Stereophile's test metrics for the Chord (April 2017):
https://www.stereophile.com/content/chord-electronics-dave-da-processor-measurements

Stereophile uses the Audio Precision SYS2722 audio analyzer.

I believe Chord uses the APx555 (???)
And that leads me to some questions about the Chords uberimpressive metrics, as reported by Mr. Watts in the RMAF 2017 seminar video.

The order of magnitude that the Chord DAVE purportedly surpasses other DACs' metrics (measurements) is interesting.

I'm not clear what is meant here in Mr. Watts' description that the noise shaper is improved to 350db. What is this metric? What kind of "distortion"? E.g., IM, THD, S/N ratio, spectrum noise, etc.

With respect to the AP analyzer ... the Stereophile measurements show that their AP SYS2722 analyzer seems to not have enough "resolution" to reveal below -160dB (as shown in the following graph of the Benchmark's spectrum with noise and spuriae of dithered 1kHz tone at –90dBFS with: 16-bit data (left channel cyan, right magenta), 24-bit data (left blue, right red) (20dB/vertical div.):
1117BDAC3fig04.jpg


How much more sensitive is the APx555 ?
 
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Apr 30, 2018 at 9:55 PM Post #850 of 5,075
The APx555 is a much better instrument than the SYS2722. Chord have one, and when they measure Dave they get -118dB DR - as opposed to -128 dB with Dave into the APX555. The SYS2722 is simply inadequate to measure Dave - indeed John Atkinson confirmed to me in January that they have now acquired an APx555, so I hope to see updated measurements. But even the APx555 has a tough time with Dave, and I am unsure how much THD is actually down to the APx555, as Dave's level is at the innate level of the 555... It's one reason for the Davina ADC project, so that I can get better measurements.

One factor that is crucial is noise floor modulation. I make a great thing out of the unmeasurable noise floor modulation character of all my DAC's, but on all other DAC's one can see huge levels of noise floor modulation. This is highly significant from a SQ POV, and I hope that this metric becomes more widely appreciated and understood, as it is for sure one of the top 3 performance indicators that correlate with subjective sound quality with DAC's.

As to your point about the noise shapers performance at -350dB. This is of course the digital domain performance of the digital path. And to measure this I use Verilog simulation. Note that a Verilog simulation is not a model or an estimation; it is the actual performance of the digital module; so if you put in a set of data, you are guaranteed to get that data in real life. The beauty of using a Verilog simulation is that once the data is passed through a FFT (in my case a 4M point FFT) one can see extremely small levels of distortion and added noise, to a performance level one could never measure on a real instrument, as analogue noise would dominate. This gives the designer incredible power to measure incredibly small aberrations and then too evaluate the sound quality changes by adjusting these aberrations. From this I have learnt that the ear/brain can resolve incredibly small aberrations - to a level that would be always be unmeasurable.

To give you an idea on this, here is the digital domain performance of the DAC within Dave:

pns 20e 301dB 6kHz FFT.jpg

My digital domain benchmark is that it must be capable of resolving a -300.99 dB signal to perfect amplitude accuracy, as this correlates with subjective depth performance (and I have done this test dozens of times with lots of different digital modules, and the depth perception always correlates with 350 dB digital domain performance). -350 dB THD and noise performance for a noise shaper is an insane level of performance as the best digital domain performance I have seen quoted by chip companies is only -140dB.

I ought to add that of course Dave will not show -350 dB in real life, as analog noise will swamp this performance. But it is important, as depth perception is totally dependent upon the DAC's ability to accurately resolve small signals amplitude perfectly, and this in turn will depend upon the noise shapers ability to resolve minute signals. The analog noise with Dave is at -128 dB; I could get better than this, but this would be at the cost of higher THD, which is damaging from a SQ POV. Moreover, the APx 555 can't measure better than -133 dB anyway, and the noise level is so low that it is immaterial subjectively - it's only when noise changes with signal that it becomes important, and as already discussed, the noise change with signal is unmeasurable.
 
Apr 30, 2018 at 10:47 PM Post #851 of 5,075
I agree with you; talking of small signal errors at -350 dB upsetting depth performance is just plane crazy. Objectively, it makes no sense that the ear/brain can be so sensitive.

But... Listen to real sounds. I am typing this at dawn in the Welsh countryside. My window is ajar, and I can hear sheep 200 feet away - and it sounds 200 feet away. From the farm 2 miles away a dog barks; it clearly sounds 2 miles away. Do this on reproduced audio and things sounds comparatively flat; no-body would claim that a recording of a dog barking 2 miles away actually sounds anything like two miles distant.

Now when I listen to noise shapers, and change the performance of noise shapers, I can easily and reliably hear changes in depth perception. And when I measure the digital domain performance of the noise shaper, there is a correlation between the small signal performance of the noise shaper and depth perception; so a 200 dB noise shaper (this means it can't resolve small signals below -200 dB accurately) has poorer depth than a 220 dB noise shaper - and continuing this process on I ended up with 350 dB performance (and I could still hear improvements from 330 to 350).

Now these numbers really do not make any kind of rational sense. And when I observed this, I was convinced that the most likely explanation was that the noise shaper performance was merely a proxy for something else going on - for example an analogue aberration that was magnifying the effect of the noise shapers, for example folding down from RF frequencies (where we do not get anything like 350 dB performance).

But I soon found that idea was wrong; I use noise shapers in digital only truncators, where you are going from say 56 bits at 768 kHz down to 24 bits. So it's all digital; and again, listening to these noise shapers gave exactly the same result; 350 dB performance had better depth than 300 dB digital only noise shapers.

But these performance numbers still make me uncomfortable; but I have repeated it with different pulse array noise shapers, and truncator noise shapers about half a dozen times with different designs - and I get exactly the same result. And I can hear you saying it is confirmation bias, because the listening tests are not double blind, and I know which noise shaper I am listening too - and I can't rule that out as a possibility. But I do plenty of listening tests where I get zero difference when I am actually expecting a sound quality change as I conduct my listening tests to be as accurate as possible. Because of these multiple tests, I am convinced that these results are real.

But if indeed noise shapers are required to such accuracy, then the ADC noise shaper itself must also need this performance. So the Davina ADC project is an 11th order 104 MHz noise shaper, and is capable of better than 350 dB performance. So to test this aspect I have the ability to turn off different integrators and hence adjust the noise shaper performance. I plan to make two recordings using two Davina's from the same mic feed, with different noise shaper performances; I will then publish the files with random file names and ask people to say which file has the better depth perception. This will be a blind listening test and will give more credence to whether this effect is real or not. Of course, it may be possible that ADC noise shapers do not show this problem - then I will have a serious headache to explain why DAC noise shapers are different!

I note actually with interest your comment "Are humans blessed with a quantum computer in our heads that can do math at 80-bits precision in real time?" And that recalled an article in New Scientist about neurons. Apparently, neuron scientists do not know whether a neuron is a simple 1 bit processor (it's output dependent solely on other inputs) or whether it has internal memory and quantum processing internally, so is actually an N bit quantum processor with a 1 bit output. That's a fairly fundamental knowledge hole... And we have no idea how the brain calculates depth perception to the amazing resolution it actually has. And I am not aware of any published psycho-acoustic papers on the technical requirements for depth perception...

Rob
;
Interesting observations .

I wonder if a design feature of say the Neuman 1947 mike that fone so loves, has somehow accomplished such filtering in the mike circuit .
They do produced the best stereo imagery I ever heard.
 
Apr 30, 2018 at 11:33 PM Post #852 of 5,075
Mr. Watts:
Thanks for your comprehensive reply. ( I realize that the RMAF seminar was time-limited; hence, much detail was necessarily omitted).
In the seminar, you also noted linearity as one of the important metrics for improving DAC performance.
Stereophile used to graph linearity in its product-review Measurements section. But, for some reason, John Atkinson ceased publishing this graph over a decade ago.
Here's an example (Chord DAC64, Stereophile, July 2002):
Chord64fig07.jpg


I'd be curious to look at a linearity graph of DAVE.

About the AP analyzers and their limited analog performance ... it may be possible to extend the performance (dynamic range, S/N) a bit using a pre-amp module for the test probe.
 
May 1, 2018 at 12:04 AM Post #853 of 5,075
One factor that is crucial is noise floor modulation. I make a great thing out of the unmeasurable noise floor modulation character of all my DAC's, but on all other DAC's one can see huge levels of noise floor modulation. This is highly significant from a SQ POV, and I hope that this metric becomes more widely appreciated and understood, as it is for sure one of the top 3 performance indicators that correlate with subjective sound quality with DAC's.
Not sure if this is what you meant, but ...way back in early 1992, Robert Harley reported on Noise, Modulation, & Digital/Analog Conversion in Stereophile:
https://www.stereophile.com/reference/292noise/index.html
Indeed, Stereophile used to publish graphs , like the following, in their digital-product reviews:
NModfig1.jpg


In 1995, Stereophile published a dedicated article explaining the metrics they used (and why they used them). They distinguished "bad" noise-floor results from "good" ones.

GOOD:
dighar11.jpg


NOT GOOD:
dighar12.jpg


Like the no-longer-published linearity results I noted earlier, as well as square waves, the noise-floor graphs have also been long "out-of-print".

Not sure why???
 
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May 7, 2018 at 2:57 AM Post #854 of 5,075
I listened to the mqa first unfold version 96khz on roon of Gregory Porter's track Smile from his Nat King Cole tribute album. The soundstage and depth were wider than the redbook version but it sounded out of focus and not together and lacking coherence. Switched back to 44.1 Flac and straight away i felt comfortable again, his voice was back together as a whole and the definition was there again. What is going on here? It's a stunning album btw.
 
May 7, 2018 at 9:43 AM Post #855 of 5,075
I listened to the mqa first unfold version 96khz on roon of Gregory Porter's track Smile from his Nat King Cole tribute album. The soundstage and depth were wider than the redbook version but it sounded out of focus and not together and lacking coherence. Switched back to 44.1 Flac and straight away i felt comfortable again, his voice was back together as a whole and the definition was there again. What is going on here? It's a stunning album btw.
Maybe MQA is actually overblown. Is there a normal high-res track available?
 

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