Watts Up...?

[Mediahound]

My focus is on making scalers work without worrying about the BNC cables at all.

Could a future MScaler have a bunch of built in optimized ferrites internally on the bnc inputs or something like that?

 

[Rob Watts]

If I understand correctly you use the Dave + M Scaler with speakers and not with headphones.
So you use the Dave+M-Scaler as a DAC, how do you connect it to your amp? RCA or XLR? Which of the 2 do you think is better? What cable do you use?

Thank you very much

Yes but I drive small and efficient speakers direct from the headphone OP. When I am travelling I use small 5 inch cube speakers driven direct from Hugo 2. I am listening to Hildur Guðnadóttir now as I type - and with Hugo 2 I can listen in a large hotel room with lots of volume and with the volume control set to a relatively low blue setting. I just wish Qobuz would work without crashing every 3 hours!

Could a future MScaler have a bunch of built in optimized ferrites internally on the bnc inputs or something like that?

It already does that, with lots of GHz ferrites plus multiple galvanic isolation. It's a testament to how ultra small errors (that today and will never in the future be measurable because they are too small) can have significant sound quality affects.

 

[pkny]

Yes but I drive small and efficient speakers direct from the headphone OP. When I am travelling I use small 5 inch cube speakers driven direct from Hugo 2. I am listening to Hildur Guðnadóttir now as I type - and with Hugo 2 I can listen in a large hotel room with lots of volume and with the volume control set to a relatively low blue setting. I just wish Qobuz would work without crashing every 3 hours!

Hi Rob,

Do you mind telling us what the model of your small spearkers is?

Thanks

 

[Rob Watts]

My travelling passive 8 ohm speakers are generic - probably cost something like £20 - but actually sound pretty damn good, with very good depth and excellent lateral imagery. Of course you can forget about deep bass, but the overall tonal balance is fine. They sound acceptably good, unlike lap-top speakers (even the high-end gaming lap-top speakers that use well known audiophile branded speakers), which are all awful. And being 5" cubes, with solid plastic enclosures, and a total weight of 2kG means you can pack them in a suitcase and travel easily. I have been using them for about 5 years I guess.

Surprisingly, Google managed to find them here:

https://electromarket.co.uk/e-audio-b406a-black-4-inch-mini-box-hi-fi-speakers

 

[Reactcore]

My travelling passive 8 ohm speakers are generic - probably cost something like £20 - but actually sound pretty damn good, with very good depth and excellent lateral imagery. Of course you can forget about deep bass, but the overall tonal balance is fine. They sound acceptably good, unlike lap-top speakers (even the high-end gaming lap-top speakers that use well known audiophile branded speakers), which are all awful. And being 5" cubes, with solid plastic enclosures, and a total weight of 2kG means you can pack them in a suitcase and travel easily. I have been using them for about 5 years I guess.

Surprisingly, Google managed to find them here:

https://electromarket.co.uk/e-audio-b406a-black-4-inch-mini-box-hi-fi-speakers

I see theyre dual cone type.

I have a old set of these 8ohm dual cone wideband drivers laying around..it would be a nice crossoverless speakerbuild experiment playing direct out of Dave

 

[pkny]

My travelling passive 8 ohm speakers are generic - probably cost something like £20 - but actually sound pretty damn good, with very good depth and excellent lateral imagery. Of course you can forget about deep bass, but the overall tonal balance is fine. They sound acceptably good, unlike lap-top speakers (even the high-end gaming lap-top speakers that use well known audiophile branded speakers), which are all awful. And being 5" cubes, with solid plastic enclosures, and a total weight of 2kG means you can pack them in a suitcase and travel easily. I have been using them for about 5 years I guess.

Surprisingly, Google managed to find them here:

https://electromarket.co.uk/e-audio-b406a-black-4-inch-mini-box-hi-fi-speakers

Hugo2 can power a pair of 90db sensitivity speakers! That's great! This makes me thinking getting a pair of these e-audio b406a as my computer speakers, but they are closed to $100 in US. May be I should pay more for Auratone 5C Super Sound Cube or Avantone Mixcube.

Rob, do you think if hugo2 can drive these single driver speakers?

1. Auratone 5C Super Sound Cube, 90db sensitivity​

2. Avantone Mixcube, 93 sensitivity​

​

Thank you

 

[Rob Watts]

Sure - 8 ohms and > 90dB and you are good to go, certainly for very near field or computer usage.

Been reading the Sound on Sound reviews on these speakers, and am thinking of getting the Mixcube myself for the office. They are too heavy for hotels though.

Sound on Sound reviews:
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/auratone-5c-super-sound-cube
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/avantone-mixcubes

The great benefit of these and the B406A is they are full range - so no crossover - that's the reason why soundstage depth is so good. OK deep bass is a no no, but 95% of what makes music emotional is the midrange, depth, and getting transients right - and you get this with crossover less driving.

 

[thePhones]

Just want to let you know that the Nvidia Shield now has a new setting under advanced audio settings, don’t know how it’s called in english but it must be called something like “keep bit depth and sample rate”, which plays the content in it’s native quality as long as the used app can do it (Youtube can’t). This completely solved the problem with Netflix having huge variation in audio quality. I don’t know why because I expected it all to be the same (48khz with same bit depth). Maybe the shield converted everything to the same bit depth and “Better Call Saul“ for example just had the ”right“ sample rate to begin with because it always sounded outstanding. But now every show sounds good to me or at least lost it’s ”dull audio”.
But I did not stop there and bought a HDMI extractor (https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07TZRXKYG?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details) to get the optical directly out of the Shield and not over my Sony TV which still always keeps everything within 48khz. So now I can also play Qobuz (up to 96khz) over Airplay/Chromecast to the Shield and the M Scaler always shows the right sample rate (44.1 - 96khz). Since the TV does not have to be on for the HDMI extractor to work I can use the Shield as my main playback source now. Enjoy!

 

[pkny]

@Rob Watts, totally agree with you. Midrange, transients, and depth are top priority for my music enjoyment criteria. I can live without deep bass. Actually, I'd rather have no deep bass than having one tone booming bass. However, without good midrange and transients, I'd rather not listening at all. I can get away without a good depth in casual listening.
Back to the cube speakers, I found another one:

https://reftone.com/store/reftone-ld3/

Now, I need to decide which one to get. From the reviews you posted and the comments from another forum, Reftone LD3 has the most extended frequency response. Second is the new Auratone 5C. Last are the Avantone Mixcube and vintage Auratone 5C. In this size and price point, I assume more extended frequency response = more distortion. If that's true, I would pick Mixcube for the lowest distortion. I wish there is a place I could audit them.

By the way, what happen to the DX amp? My B&W Signature 805 want to be powered from it.

 

[gnomen]

Hi Rob. Thought you might be interested in this as it is relevant to the brain's detection of audio direction:
"oligodendrocytes use myelin to fine-tune the velocity of electric signals in axons. For example, axons carrying signals from the left and right ears to a particular part of the auditory cortex will differ in length, so those signals might be expected to take different amounts of time to arrive. Oligodendrocyte fine-tuning (achieved by adjusting the diameter of the axon and of the distances between the nodes of the myelin sheath) compensates for this, meaning any remaining difference reflects the actual interval between the times of a sound’s arrival at each ear. And it is that real difference which the brain uses to locate whence a sound has come."

The Economist Neurons are not the only brain cells that think, January 28, 2023

 

[Rob Watts]

Hi Rob. Thought you might be interested in this as it is relevant to the brain's detection of audio direction:
"oligodendrocytes use myelin to fine-tune the velocity of electric signals in axons. For example, axons carrying signals from the left and right ears to a particular part of the auditory cortex will differ in length, so those signals might be expected to take different amounts of time to arrive. Oligodendrocyte fine-tuning (achieved by adjusting the diameter of the axon and of the distances between the nodes of the myelin sheath) compensates for this, meaning any remaining difference reflects the actual interval between the times of a sound’s arrival at each ear. And it is that real difference which the brain uses to locate whence a sound has come."

The Economist Neurons are not the only brain cells that think, January 28, 2023

Very interesting, and thanks very much for that article. The raw resolution of the inter-aural delay that measures time differences between the ears is of the order of 10uS to (with one source) at 4uS. But I have often thought that if the neurons fire with some dither (which is entirely plausible) then by looking at the adjacent outputs would enable much improved resolution. It's a little like 16 bit (96dB raw resolution) having measurable signals at -140 dB with dither and the appropriate FFT resolution.

Digging deeper you can see the original paper here.

The key quote from this paper is:
"We have now described data in homologous pathways in
two divergent species indicating that separate collaterals of indi-
vidual parent axons precisely regulate the interactions with sur-
rounding neural elements to achieve markedly different
conduction velocities. This results in precise integration of the
timing of information from different sources to the postsynaptic
neurons."

So my understanding from this paper is that the inter-aural delay is not triggered by one element of fixed delay, but many multiple sources, and the brain uses population density to measure the actual inter-aural delay without any resolution issues. This suggests that the smallest difference in timing is resolvable by the brain. That idea links up with listening tests of my own work recently on transient timing errors, when errors no matter how small are perceivable, and are important subjectively.

Fascinating stuff!

 

[gnomen]

Thanks Rob. I think your insights into the critical nature of timing and depth perception, and the psychology of hearing more generally, represent a crucial breakthrough in achieving better sound.

I have listened to hi-fi for 50 years now and what strikes me is the propensity of enthusiasts to upgrade their systems regularly. I do think a contributing factor is that, with each new system, their brains learn to distinguish the reproduced sound from the real thing and the thrill gradually disappears. When they change to a new system, the brain is fooled all over again, it sounds so "realistic", until the brain once more learns to make the distinction. I guess being able to detect the sound of an unexpected presence nearby was (is) critical for survival, so the brain works quite hard to do it. All this is mere supposition of course -- I have no scientific data to support it. But it does explain why we are amazed all over again with each new upgrade. I have heard it said that original listeners to Edison's wax roll recordings were as amazed as we are today with your DACs -- it sounded to them like the person speaking was actually in the room. That must be where the upgrade process began.

Now, if we can eliminate all clues the brain can use to distinguish reproduced sound from the real thing, will we constantly be amazed because the brain cannot do this trick any more? ... will the final upgrade ever arrive?

 

[thePhones]

When they change to a new system, the brain is fooled all over again, it sounds so "realistic", until the brain once more learns to make the distinction

I know exactly what you mean. Every album has it’s own sound to it and every system has colorations to it. So after you have listend to enough different albums you start to notice the coloration which is added by the dac to every song. This then becomes more and more obvious and everything sounds more the same.

will the final upgrade ever arrive?

I think the Dave/Mscaler combo probably have a limit but after two years I still hear each recording as the limiting factor. I have till now not heard the colorations Dave has. So this is by far the longest time I have not noticed the dac as the limiting factor. With Hugo 2-Mscaler combo it was like half a year and I started noticing the limits. So for me MDave with Utopia or Expanse is Endgame for me now. I am so satisfied with it I don’t even know if I would upgrade to the new M Scaler (yeah I probably will ) Everything that comes after this is just a bit more icing on the already perfect cake… unless recordings get a lot better!

 

[miketlse]

Thanks Rob. I think your insights into the critical nature of timing and depth perception, and the psychology of hearing more generally, represent a crucial breakthrough in achieving better sound.

I have listened to hi-fi for 50 years now and what strikes me is the propensity of enthusiasts to upgrade their systems regularly. I do think a contributing factor is that, with each new system, their brains learn to distinguish the reproduced sound from the real thing and the thrill gradually disappears. When they change to a new system, the brain is fooled all over again, it sounds so "realistic", until the brain once more learns to make the distinction. I guess being able to detect the sound of an unexpected presence nearby was (is) critical for survival, so the brain works quite hard to do it. All this is mere supposition of course -- I have no scientific data to support it. But it does explain why we are amazed all over again with each new upgrade. I have heard it said that original listeners to Edison's wax roll recordings were as amazed as we are today with your DACs -- it sounded to them like the person speaking was actually in the room. That must be where the upgrade process began.

Now, if we can eliminate all clues the brain can use to distinguish reproduced sound from the real thing, will we constantly be amazed because the brain cannot do this trick any more? ... will the final upgrade ever arrive?

I think that for some audiophiles and new gear/gadgets the 'thrill of the chase applies'.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/20...of-chase-science-of-attraction_n_1297059.html

 

[FunkyBassMan]

95% of what makes music emotional is the midrange, depth, and getting transients right

This may be the most fascinating thing I've ever read about audio reproduction.

But it's been borne out in my experience. I have been dealing with a terrible problem trying to get my DAVE headphone output to work with a balanced 4.4mm headphone. The adaptor makes everything limited frequency response and mono. AND YET, because the transients (it's m-scaled) and midrange are still there, it still sounds incredibly engaging.