[Rob Watts]

I have heard the Rossini DAC.
It was at Windsor Hi-end show a few years ago, partnered with Audio Research valve amps and Wilson Audio Yvette speakers, I stayed for two sessions of about 20 mins per session.
That has so far been the most awesome sound I ever heard to this day.
The previous year, in a similar setup (different Wilson Audio speaker), a Metronome DAC was used instead. Although it sounded excellent, but the Rossini was better, noticabley.
Frankly I do understand, that this is "Watt's up" thread, and Mr. Watts pride in his work (deservedly) - however to blatantly declare "I am the best and others can not compete" is a little hard to swallow.
Linn is a very professional manufacturer - a Hi-end manufacturer going back a bit longer than 33 years and they too have devoted a lifetime of experience in their craft.
I doubt that they just " Cobble things together" , stick their name on it and sell it for thousands - they have lasted this long because of the quality of their products.
Snake-Oil Merchants ?? they are not.

I was not suggesting that Linn cobble things together - they are well engineered products. What I was saying was that it is technically relatively easy to cobble a PWM based FPGA design together; just designing a discrete DAC means nothing - in most engineers hands an FPGA DAC design would simply mean the flexibility to do your own thing means more opportunities to screw things up. Getting state of the art performance requires decades of work for a DAC, this stuff is not easy!

 

[Ragnar-BY]

Dave/HMS is about as good as I´ve heard digital sound, and NO I have not auditioned the Bartok yet.

Bartok sound quality is between TT2 and DAVE and it comes with a price, which allows you to buy DAVE plus a decent headphone amp. Rossini should be better than Bartok, but it’s price is so high that you can buy DAVE, M-Scaler, good streamer and state-of-the-art headphone amp. Inbuilt dCS streamer do not allow DSD256 which makes it useless for me. Rossini also need additions, according to dCS it sounds best with external clock and upscaler.

Can’t say anything about the very top shelf of DACs like dCS Vivaldi or MSB Select, these are well outside of my budget.

Considering both sound quality and price, Chord DACs looks to me as the most reasonable out of all high-end brands.

 

[alxw0w]

headphone outputs
1 stereo balanced pair on 1x 4-way male XLR connector. 1 stereo unbalanced pair on 1x 6.35mm (1/4”) 3-pole jack. Full-scale output levels are 1.4W rms into 33Ω, 0.15W rms into 300Ω. Output levels are 0, -10, -20, -30dB, set in the menu. Minimum headphone impedance is 33Ω.

So you can't use a load below 33 ohms! Also, 33 ohms is only 1.4W - against TT2's 10W into 33 (balanced OP). Dave will match Bartok in drive from the SE headphone OP, but can deliver 0.5A RMS so will drive loads down to 8 ohms.

I'm wondering why people say that Bartok is fine with headphones like Hifiman Susvara while also claiming that Dave cannot properly drive them.
Interesting

 

[Christer]

I don't know where you are getting the numbers for dCS Bartok, but looking at dCS website they quote:

residual noise
24-bit data: Better than –113dB0, 20Hz - 20kHz unweighted. (6V output setting)

That number is flat, so AWt would be around -116dB or nearly 4 times more noise than TT2.

As to your assertion that Bartok will drive anything, then again look at their specs:

headphone outputs
1 stereo balanced pair on 1x 4-way male XLR connector. 1 stereo unbalanced pair on 1x 6.35mm (1/4”) 3-pole jack. Full-scale output levels are 1.4W rms into 33Ω, 0.15W rms into 300Ω. Output levels are 0, -10, -20, -30dB, set in the menu. Minimum headphone impedance is 33Ω.

So you can't use a load below 33 ohms! Also, 33 ohms is only 1.4W - against TT2's 10W into 33 (balanced OP). Dave will match Bartok in drive from the SE headphone OP, but can deliver 0.5A RMS so will drive loads down to 8 ohms.

SNR or residual noise of -127 dB is perfectly fine, and will not create SQ problems - so long as the noise is fixed. But of course all non chord DACs do not have a fixed noise level, as it increases with higher signal voltages. Chord DACs are unique in that the noise is fixed - no noise floor modulation, and this has huge SQ benefits. I could easily improve the noise levels - but to do so would increase distortion. I am not prepared to sacrifice sound quality for meaningless specs, as 127 dB is inaudible.

As to what I do in the future - it will be governed by one simple rule - whatever works best for the best sound quality. If that's one box or ten, then so be it. I am not prepared to sacrifice SQ to suit convenience - and if you want convenience then there are plenty of other alternatives open to you.

Thanks for your response and explanations of some of the tech spec facts I asked about Rob. I did not ask them out of any malice ,but as always simply out of curiosity.

But what about ALL the other questions I asked?????

I am quite certain I am not the only one here ,yearning for some good news!
Or is there no News?

Regarding the SNR for Bartok and TT2 I just quoted the numbers mentioned in the just published comparison review over at headphonics.
And whether Bartok can drive Susvara to my satisfaction or not I don´t have a clue yet.

Sloppy of me, to quote without fact-checking yes.
Mea culpa.

But I do know that Dave on its own can NOT drive Susvara with some of the non compressed classical masterfile material I mainly tend to listen to.


And I still don´t understand, if as you say you could "easily improve noise levels "why would that also have to involve increased distortion?
How can 355 dB "down under details" be resolved with 127dB SNR?

As far as whether convenience or SQ rule for me, suffice to say: I would not have not been dragging along both my Qutest and Mscaler and BNC cabling and two headphone amps and two quite good headphones on all of my recent years long term 5-6 months spells in Asia until Corona hit if convenience had been my main preference.
Last year I came back to Europe this week.

Until I hear something better,either from you, or the competition, Mscaler rules for me.

I have to paraphrase Simon and Garfunkel :"Mama don´ t, Mama don´t take my Kodachrome away"

Or more frankly, please don´t make the Mscaler redundant ,just add more of its magic even if it takes adding even more boxes and cables!

Talking Linn, my ancient Linn Sondek LP12 is still working after more than 40 years and can still challenge some of the digital competition too!
But my Hugo 1 sits idle except for an occasional YT music video via headphones.
And now over to those other questions, please.
Cheers CC

 

[Triode User]

Thanks for your response and explanations of some of the tech spec facts I asked about Rob. I did not ask them out of any malice ,but as always simply out of curiosity.

But what about ALL the other questions I asked?????

I am quite certain I am not the only one here ,yearning for some good news!
Or is there no News?

Hi Christer, I hope you are well. Do you mean all these questions?

"Will your next SOTA product like some competitors already allow,have volume adjustment that works at half dB steps instead of as now 1 dB? Imho the Devil lives in the details, and 1dB up or down in volume is quite a step isn´t it?

Will it have 40 elements intead of Dave´s current 20?
I suspect that the obvious improvement Dave brings over the other three Mscaler capable dacs lies in partly in that ingredient.

Will it upscale even higher than the current 32/768 Mscaler does?
Will it have more taps than Mscaler´s 1M?
And if so how many more?

I am still thinking of something you said at Canjam in Singapore 2018, ie the number of taps needed to fully resolve 24bits would according to digital theory be 256M taps and you did not think that would be achievable in your lifetime.

Any news to share as far as number of taps are concerned?"

As Astra Zenica has been finding out, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Rob has had things back fire on him before by promising or even just hinting at progress for future devices which for various reasons he has not been able to progress as quickly as was expected. Possibly that might have something to do with any perceived reluctance to address you questions?

 

[Christer]

Bartok sound quality is between TT2 and DAVE and it comes with a price, which allows you to buy DAVE plus a decent headphone amp. Rossini should be better than Bartok, but it’s price is so high that you can buy DAVE, M-Scaler, good streamer and state-of-the-art headphone amp. Inbuilt dCS streamer do not allow DSD256 which makes it useless for me. Rossini also need additions, according to dCS it sounds best with external clock and upscaler.

Can’t say anything about the very top shelf of DACs like dCS Vivaldi or MSB Select, these are well outside of my budget.

Considering both sound quality and price, Chord DACs looks to me as the most reasonable out of all high-end brands.

Thanks, what you say is what I suspect as well, without having auditioned the Bartok.
I think Austinpop over at CA basically came to the conclusion that TT2 needed the Mscaler to rival and beat Bartok in his opinion and review if my memory serves me right.
But interestingly the recent review I quoted above at Headphonics.com came to the conclusion that the Bartok still slightly ruled over TT2 even with the Mscaler added to TT2.
My own limited take so far is that TT2 definitely needs the the Mscaler to charm me. Without HMS it sounds too digital to me. And Dave/Mscaler are clearly better in all respects imho.

Unfortunately all of my auditions with Chord dacs except my own personal Qutest/Mscaler are all via highend headphones. But in my own system I can also play via resolving electrostatic speakers.
I have yet to hear Dave/HMS in a good room via a good speaker/amp system.
Not even ONE of the real highend dealers in Sweden stock Chord dacs. Nor did I ever during my many visits find any good showrooms in Asia,neither in Singapore nor KL that Stocked Chord dacs and had big rooms and good speakers connected.
The really good shops with resolving systems used either dCS, MSB or some other really expensive highend dacs in their systems.
But I have to say that some of them sounded very good indeed.
Via speakers I have to say that some of the best SQ and most realistic playback of acoustic music in a BIG room I have ever heard,was via Gryphon Pendragon speakers with some 2000 watts per channel amping and well recorded Swedish Opus 3 and Proprius recordings I had been present at.
PS Any particular recommendations regarding native DSD 256?
I only have some unedited sessions masters but can only play them downsampled to DSD 128 via my mac.
Cheers CC

 

[Christer]

Hi Christer, I hope you are well. Do you mean all these questions?

"Will your next SOTA product like some competitors already allow,have volume adjustment that works at half dB steps instead of as now 1 dB? Imho the Devil lives in the details, and 1dB up or down in volume is quite a step isn´t it?

Will it have 40 elements intead of Dave´s current 20?
I suspect that the obvious improvement Dave brings over the other three Mscaler capable dacs lies in partly in that ingredient.

Will it upscale even higher than the current 32/768 Mscaler does?
Will it have more taps than Mscaler´s 1M?
And if so how many more?

I am still thinking of something you said at Canjam in Singapore 2018, ie the number of taps needed to fully resolve 24bits would according to digital theory be 256M taps and you did not think that would be achievable in your lifetime.

Any news to share as far as number of taps are concerned?"

As Astra Zeniica has been finding out, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Rob has had things back fire on him before by promising or even just hinting at progress for future devices which for various reasons he has not been able to progress as quickly as was expected. Possibly that might have something to do with any perceived reluctance to address you questions?

Exactamente!
Very OT, but my best friend just had his first Astra jab yesterday.
In spite of my stern warnings.
I think I will wait just a bit more.
There´s got to be something better than that one?
Back on topic how is your comparison with iPad against Innous going?
And what do you suspect the reason behind the SQ differences between your cd players as transports with Dave Mscaler is/are?
Cheers CC

 

[Kentajalli]

Me, My wife and most friends have had out Astra jabs (first dose so far) and still here to tell the tale.
Somehow, my Mojo sounds a bit better since!
can't wait for second jab now.

 

[Triode User]

Exactamente!
Very OT, but my best friend just had his first Astra jab yesterday.
In spite of my stern warnings.
I think I will wait just a bit more.
There´s got to be something better than that one?
Cheers CC

I assume you are joking about waiting for a better jab. In which case you get a . But don't joke about these things, Macron might believe you!

PS, Dave and I have our badge . .

 

[Rob Watts]

Thanks for your response and explanations of some of the tech spec facts I asked about Rob. I did not ask them out of any malice ,but as always simply out of curiosity.

But what about ALL the other questions I asked?????

I am quite certain I am not the only one here ,yearning for some good news!
Or is there no News?

Regarding the SNR for Bartok and TT2 I just quoted the numbers mentioned in the just published comparison review over at headphonics.
And whether Bartok can drive Susvara to my satisfaction or not I don´t have a clue yet.

Sloppy of me, to quote without fact-checking yes.
Mea culpa.

But I do know that Dave on its own can NOT drive Susvara with some of the non compressed classical masterfile material I mainly tend to listen to.


And I still don´t understand, if as you say you could "easily improve noise levels "why would that also have to involve increased distortion?
How can 355 dB "down under details" be resolved with 127dB SNR?

As far as whether convenience or SQ rule for me, suffice to say: I would not have not been dragging along both my Qutest and Mscaler and BNC cabling and two headphone amps and two quite good headphones on all of my recent years long term 5-6 months spells in Asia until Corona hit if convenience had been my main preference.
Last year I came back to Europe this week.

Until I hear something better,either from you, or the competition, Mscaler rules for me.

I have to paraphrase Simon and Garfunkel :"Mama don´ t, Mama don´t take my Kodachrome away"

Or more frankly, please don´t make the Mscaler redundant ,just add more of its magic even if it takes adding even more boxes and cables!

Talking Linn, my ancient Linn Sondek LP12 is still working after more than 40 years and can still challenge some of the digital competition too!
But my Hugo 1 sits idle except for an occasional YT music video via headphones.
And now over to those other questions, please.
Cheers CC

You asked too many questions!

As too future products and tap lengths, I am not at liberty to talk yet.

As too news, lot's of interesting things happening here. But it's mostly high level research stuff, and I don't want to talk about it until products are launched. So I am afraid you will have to be patient.

So how a -350dB digital artefact (that is only observable in the digital domain with very careful Verilog simulation/measurement) can be audible is beyond me; it doesn't make logical sense. I was doing some listening tests a few weeks ago and on simulation the artefacts were at -350 dB - and this was using an extreme test signal, music would be even smaller than this. It was upsetting instrument separation and focus, timbre variation and clarity. I did a blind test with my son, and he described exactly what I heard - with me giving him no clue as to what was going on - just listen to this and then that and describe the difference. And he could easily hear the change. But having 127 dB SNR improved to say 135 dB SNR will not change this perception, as the problem is nothing to do with fixed noise but correlated noise (that is signal dependent noise).

So improving the fixed or residual noise is a simple process. The pulse array DAC residual noise is down to primarily Johnson-Nyquist (that's resistor thermal noise) as the noise from the switching activity of the DAC is comparatively negligible. To reduce the noise you simply reduce the resistance value; but there comes a point when distortion increases (it eventually quadruples for a doubling in current). This distortion mechanism is very complex, and depends upon a number of things, which have been reduced to be as small as possible. But eventually you get down to device physics, and when you hit that barrier there is nothing to do to improve on the situation. So the element resistor value needs to be set so that you don't hit the knee in the distortion curve, but that still gives acceptable noise. Distortion changes the sound quality; but residual noise that is static will not.

Happy listening, Rob

 

[Christer]

I assume you are joking about waiting for a better jab. In which case you get a . But don't joke about these things, Macron might believe you!

PS, Dave and I have our badge . .

Well I know you given your Dave "a shot in the arm".
But what has Rob got to say about that shot?
And no I don´t belong to the anti vacc conspiratory team.

 

[mammal]

Also, 33 ohms is only 1.4W - against TT2's 10W into 33 (balanced OP).

Do we have a table somewhere (or a graph) of power delivery into different impedance? Chord quotes 8 and 300 Ohms on TT2's specs, but on the forum I found more specifics figures, when people asked for their specific headphones.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

Not even ONE of the real highend dealers in Sweden stock Chord dacs. Nor did I ever during my many visits find any good showrooms in Asia,neither in Singapore nor KL that Stocked Chord dacs and had big rooms and good speakers connected.
The really good shops with resolving systems used either dCS, MSB or some other really expensive highend dacs in their systems.

I don’t think it means anything at all. Dealers choose their gear depending on prices, relationship with manufacturer e t.c.

You should try to bring your own DAC in the shop and try to listen to it in comparison with DACs from other brands.

One of my friends at local hi-fi forum compared his Qutest with Naim NDX 2 in his system. He was going to make all-Naim system, but was very surprised with sound. In his opinion Qutest with which was 4-5 times cheaper played much better than NDX2. He continued to listen to different DACs and ended up buying DAVE

You need to do your own comparisons to understand how good is your DAC and how good are others.

I don’t know if Chords are best DACs or not, but I know for sure that there are a lot of DACs which are more expensive and sound worse at the same time.

 

[Ragnar-BY]

Do we have a table somewhere (or a graph) of power delivery into different impedance? Chord quotes 8 and 300 Ohms on TT2's specs, but on the forum I found more specifics figures, when people asked for their specific headphones.

1,5W SE and 6W balanced at 50 Ohms

 

[thePhones]

Today I noticed something strange...
I added the ferrite cores (15 per cable) to the 2m bnc cables and it sounded better (smoother, warmer) than without them.
Don‘t know if I ordered the wrong type of ferrites but it still sounded better with the battery attached (same with speakers and headphones).
But then I thought if I connect the charger of the powerbank the problem should be back, but it sounds identical.
I am using the same powerbank Rob uses on flights, and it seems to have no Problem with charging and powering/converting voltages at the same time.
It may be the battery acting as a buffer but why are the TT2s capacitors not buffering/shielding noise in the same way. Or maybe it is that the psu of the mscaler is more noisy than the one of the poweradd powerbank?
Very strange...

ps. See my setup below