[Tomcat]

I guess in this debate whether harsh sound can be more desirable and accurate and real than smooth sound, I am on markl's side:
Quote:

My hypothesis is that abrasiveness and hash are typically things "added" by "bad" equipment. The R10 doesn't add them, so it's transparent. I don't see "smoothness" as a subtraction of sound that's meant to be there.

BTW, that's a point that is made in the "Audio Hell" article by the Audio Note people shivohum mentioned: that the perceivability of detail might be the perceivability of an artificially etched quality, of phase distortion and timing errors, and that musical flow is a lot more important than detail. BTW, not surprisingly, that's what higher end Audio Note systems (with vinyl source and no-feedback SET amps) sound like: extremely smooth, musical and involving. They sound seamless.

There is a certain danger of getting bogged down in individual performance aspects if we try to listen too hard. I guess, in the end, we should look at the bottom line: which headphones "disappear the most" as 88Sound or markl might say, which components are the least obtrusive and the most enjoyable with the widest variety of recordings?

For 88Sound, the W100 seems to work quite well when he primarily considers the bottom-line-musical-enjoyment-factor. I feel the same about my pair. I guess many, or maybe even most W100 owners feel this way. Nevertheless, I am very curious about the R10. I am a sucker for smooth sound. And if the R10 were indeed a rich man’s W100… It’s either that or the W100 are a thinking man’s R10. I’d like to know.

 

[markl]

Quote:

a thinking man’s R10

R10 owners can't think properly? What are you implying?

markl

 

[Tomcat]

No, no, markl, I am not implying anyone is dumb. This was a joke. I am implying I don't know which headphone sounds better, or which one is more suited to my preferences. 88Sound seems to prefer the W100, but since he said if he listened more to classical music (and acoustic instruments, I presume), the R10 "would be very tempting" and since everyone seems to agree how smooth and relaxed the R10 is, I am not sure that I would feel as he does. My gut instincts tell me that for me, as a W100 owner, there still might be something to aspire to.

Another thing I am implying is that there is no clear correlation between a component's price and its performance and musicality. But basically, that's what 88Sound has been suggesting with his thread title.

 

[shivohum]

88sound, I have a few questions about your impressions of the R10.

1) In what ways, if any, were the SOUND of the R10 and the W100 similar?

2) How did vocals sound on the R10 vs. the W100?

3) What was the bass like on the R10 vs. the W100?

4) How would you describe the overall "color" of the R10? How would you describe the overall "color" of the W100?

5) As Tomcat pointed out, you might be tempted to go with the R10 if you listened to mostly classical. What characteristics of the R10 make you think it would be well-suited to classical?

Thanks.

 

[88Sound]

Quote:

88Sound seems to prefer the W100, but since he said if he listened more to classical music (and acoustic instruments, I presume)

I was not referring to all acoustic instruments, just classical. Most of the jazz I like, old and new, has most or all acoustic instruments, piano, trumpet, strings, drums, upright bass, etc.. Even though I did not listen to classical on the R10's I imagine they would be incredible with a full orchestra, lots of violins, cellos, etc. where their effortless and smooth presentation would be put to good use. If any phone could make sense of a cocaphony of sound the R10 could.

Quote:

For 88Sound, the W100 seems to work quite well when he primarily considers the bottom-line-musical-enjoyment-factor

You hit the nail on the head. When the EMP is singing and the music is right the W100 is breathtaking.

To be fair to the R10 I did not think my W100's sounded as good with the better source, interconnects, and that EMP. My 100's were a little on the harsh side. I don't experience this harshness at home, and I thought this before I ever put the R10 on my head. The R10's however in this environment did not sound harsh at all, they also did not give me the magic I'm hearing with my W100's at home, but neither did my W100's with this setup. I really wish that when I'm experiencing that EMP/W100 magic I could immediately swap it with an R10 to hear what would happen. This sadly does not seem possible without a very substantial purchase.

If smoothness & relaxation (which translates into musicality for some) are your goal, start saving your pennies. The R10 is the little picture you see in the dictionary next to the word smooth and with their construction, comfort, and rarity are downright lovable.

 

[88Sound]

Quote:

1) In what ways, if any, were the SOUND of the R10 and the W100 similar?

Both have the ability to render instruments with tonal correctness and in their own separate and distinct space surrounded by air. Neither sound like an autopsy of sound, both have the ability to disappear sonically with the right material .

Similar in these ways...yes.. but not identical. It would be easy to tell if you were listening to a W100 or an R10.

Quote:

2) How did vocals sound on the R10 vs. the W100?

They both sounded good, with the R10 smoother, some might say to a fault, others will say finally something that is perfect! My problem was that my W100's at home sounded much better here than the R10 or my W100's in this setup. When my EMP is warmed up the vocals pick up a 3 dimesional fleshy quality that I find incredible...this was not happening with the EMP I was using to audition the R10, I know this because it was not happening with my W100's with material it happens with 100% of the time with my EMP at home.

Quote:

3) What was the bass like on the R10 vs. the W100?

The R10's are very deep and controlled, the W100's were not quite as deep or controlled during the audition. The W100's now have many more hours on them than they did two weeks ago and seem to be picking up a tighter bass....(this last part is for Tomcat).

Quote:

4) How would you describe the overall "color" of the R10? How would you describe the overall "color" of the W100?

The R10's seem neutral with a strict headmistress installed to make sure all the instruments stay in line, Like the edges are all buffed, everything in it's proper place....perfect....Stepford Wives perfect. (Please don't make me explain that last part).

The W100's are on the warm side of neutral, this is my preference for old jazz and female vocal.

Quote:

5) As Tomcat pointed out, you might be tempted to go with the R10 if you listened to mostly classical. What characteristics of the R10 make you think it would be well-suited to classical?

Their effortlessness and smoothness give them a great ability to make sense out of a full orchestra, taming a cocaphony of sound (it's that headmistress thing again).

 

[shivohum]

Thanks, 88Sound... a few more questions.

1) Do you feel that either the R10 or the W100 have a "woody" sound to them?

2) How would you compare their soundstaging?

3) How would you compare the R10s and W100s to the Etys?

Thanks again

 

[Blighty]

Quote:

Originally posted by shivohum Thanks, 88Sound... a few more questions. 1) Do you feel that either the R10 or the W100 have a "woody" sound to them? 2) How would you compare their soundstaging? 3) How would you compare the R10s and W100s to the Etys? Thanks again

Shiv = General Inquisitor to Ferdinand V & Isabella

 

[88Sound]

Quote:

Did you listen to the W100's out of your Panasonic PCDP? How do they sound when compared to them being played when with the EMP?

OK, I finally got to this. First of all you must be aware that you are smack dab in the middle of crazy audiophile nuance land. For any non audiophile type the W100's sound quite good even directly out of a portable source. Better with a D-25 (15mw) but pretty good with the panasonic 570 (5 mw). If you are a wretched and cursed audiophile like many here (me for instance) there is a lightyear of difference between the 5mw headphone amp in the 570 and the 150mw EMP tube amp. Miles muted trumpet that I harp about so often is magic with the EMP and by comparison a knife in the ear on the 570.

My advise, if it sounds good to you and you want to save money look no further. Like the Matrix you may be saying....why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.

 

[kelly]

I'm so confused. You talk about $4000 headphones then talk about the D-25S and CT570? For what it's worth, in my opinion, the CT570 sounds way way better than the D-25S using any amp/headphone. I don't think that's "audiophile nuance land", it's just a newer and vastly better DAC and drive mechanism. And the CT570, for whatever that's worth, is nowhere near any good non-portable source. Why is source such an afterthought with you guys.

 

[dngl]

how do you think the w100s fare with classical?

 

[88Sound]

Quote:

1) Do you feel that either the R10 or the W100 have a "woody" sound to them?

I've read it often and still don't know what it is. If you mean warm then the W100's have a touch more than the R10's. If you mean a buffed, polite quality the R10's have more of it than the W100's. I just held a piece of wood up to my ear and heard nothing....not even the ocean.

Quote:

2) How would you compare their soundstaging?

If by soundstage you mean the ability to properly space the euipment on a stage front to back and left to right....I must admit I was not concentrating on this during my short audition. Both phones portray instruments clearly in their own space however.

Quote:

3) How would you compare the R10s and W100s to the Etys?

The ETY4S's are as close to a reference source as I have ever heard. You get whatever your source is producing for good or ill. This can be really incredible with some material, much of the material I like, especially the older recordings can use some help.
I honestly don't think the R10 or W100 sound like the ETY's but if you promise not to ask me any more questions I'd put it like this....If the ETY's are Hawaii, the R10's are California and the W100's are Colorado.

(note that California is closer to Hawaii than Colorado but neither one is that close)

If that last statement doesn't deserve the confused emoticon...what does?

 

[Tomcat]

Quote:

Originally posted by 88Sound The W100's now have many more hours on them than they did two weeks ago and seem to be picking up a tighter bass....(this last part is for Tomcat).

88Sound, you're too good to me!

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by 88Sound (On W100 and R10 sounding "woody"...) I just held a piece of wood up to my ear and heard nothing....not even the ocean.

Hahahaha

That is definitely quote of the week.

 

[dngl]

I totally understand you there with the states, 88.