W100 first impressions

[kelly]

Hirsch

What is a TDS Passive Audiophile?

Kurt has reported good results from using the microZOTL with both the W2002 and the W100. I know from talking to him that neutrality isn't as big a priority for him as it is for me (though it still makes the list) but it'd probably still be worth seeing which tubes he's using.

When you talk about darkness, I tend to associate that word with tonal balance only. In other words, I define dark as "an overemphasis on the lows in the frequency response." It seems that you mean something different here as you're saying that tubes that might make the HD600 dark might tend to make the W100 more neutral. While I do think the W100 has a peaky frequency response, my issue with it lies more in how it just applies a standard sound to every instrument played through it.

Maybe I'm using the wrong word, but I'd say the coloration is similar to when a band plays in a different room and all of their instruments pick up the qualities of that room. I feel every headphone and speaker does this to some degree or another but the W100 does it moreso and in a room I'm not fond of (and imagine most other people wouldn't be either, given a choice).

One thing worth noting is that when Nick and I were auditioning the W100, we did at one point use the Corda HA-1 which a lot of owners seem to like with the W100. I can't, of course, account for the variations in source and interconnects but Nick and I both found the HD600 to be far preferable to the W100 with the Corda HA-1 in the system we were using. Nick also didn't care for the W100 with the MG Head and his typical stock of tubes--I didn't get to hear this myself as he'd already moved his MG Head on by the time I got there.

 

[88Sound]

I have used my W100's with 4 different amps (CHA47, CMOY, RA-1 & EMP) and four different sources (SL-CT570, D-25S, Denon 1700 w/ DI/O, and DV-47A) and honestly I think these phones sound goodwith any of the above combinations. When you combine the best source & best amp from above (DV-47A & EMP) and material where the colorations of the W100 help (old jazz, female vocal, audiophile recordings...like chesky) and .....this is important now.......they are played at the proper volume, the phones disappear, they become completely transparent, and you are in the studio or venue where the original recording takes place. When the phones sound like this the illusion can be lessened or distroyed by playing the volume too loudly. Dialing in the proper volume on these phones is very important for them to sound their best.

It is my opinion that the best choice of headphone for anyone is more material dependent than system dependent (as long as the system pieces are not a complete mismatch). When I'm listening to material that sounds great on 325's, I typically think the W100's sound colored, When I'm listening to material that sounds great on the W100, I think the 325's sound raw and harsh. This whole business of what headphone is the best for me is a moving target.

It is my contention that I could set up a system, material, volume combination with 325, RS-1, ETY4S or W100 that you would have trouble beating with any phone. Material that sounds perfect to me on a 325 does not sound perfect on anything else. The same goes for the ETY's or the W100's. If all material was recorded perfectly, and the same, I would imagine that the one uncolored phone out there (if it exists) would be the best thing to have. Because this is not the case I'm glad I have so many options. If you can only afford one pair of phones try to match them with the material you listen to most. If you can only afford one pair of phones take a variety of material that you're familiar with and pick the ones you like most at the time.

And above all don't take my advice, let your own ears decide.

 

[JML]

Plus don't forget source material. I'm using primarily vinyl, and only solid-state equipment. I think the W100 is heavenly.

 

[dngl]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Quality Guru Jon, You mentioned that you saw a few 'midrange impurities.' What did you see? Also, how do you think the midrange transparency of the W100 compares to that of the HD600? I'm sort of curious as to what everyone's opinions are in regards to the colurations of the W100 . . . So do you think the colouration of the W100 adds to or detracts from the sound?

W100s- there are specific frequency ranges where they are good phones. Then there are specific frequency ranges that are muddied and exaggerated or scooped. Sometimes they sound thin. Regarding the coloration, I think that it detracts from the sound. I am one of those people who doesn't find coloration appealing; I always hear it as "fake". Obviously, to you and JML it sounds good. So the w100s aren't crap or anything, I'm just not sure if they're my style. Oh yeah, I've been breaking them in constantly and they are changing somewhat.

 

[dngl]

Quote:

Originally posted by kelly I continue to be amazed by the amount of people who prefer the W100 to the HD600.

I prefer the w100 to the hd600 for rock (as i stated above) which constitutes less than 10% of my listening. the HD600s continue to scrub the w100s in other genres.

 

[The Quality Guru]

Wow, it seems that all of the HD600 lovers are rather hard to convert . . . not too many of them have given in to the persuasive power of the W100 . .

I personally think that one reason most HD600 lovers don't like the W100 as much as their Senn is because of the constrasting style of presentation of each 'phone. In fact, I think that these two 'phones are almost opposites. The HD600 has a distant, laid-back, neutral presentation while the W100 has an up-front (though not usually abrasive like Grados) musical, coloured presentation that really does differ very much from the Senn's sound. It's just my theory.

 

[kelly]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Quality Guru I personally think that one reason most HD600 lovers don't like the W100 as much as their Senn is because of the constrasting style of presentation of each 'phone. In fact, I think that these two 'phones are almost opposites. The HD600 has a distant, laid-back, neutral presentation while the W100 has an up-front (though not usually abrasive like Grados) musical, coloured presentation that really does differ very much from the Senn's sound. It's just my theory.

QG, the only problem with this theory is the many kind words I've spoken about the W2002.

I own and enjoy the HD600 but I'm not fanatical enough to ignore its flaws and go on about them in several other posts. If I find something I like better than the HD600, you can bet I'm going to be quick to make a switch.

 

[Masz]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Quality Guru The HD600 has a distant, laid-back, neutral presentation while the W100 has an up-front (though not usually abrasive like Grados) musical, coloured presentation that really does differ very much from the Senn's sound. It's just my theory.

Why do I keep hearing that the Senn HD600 is distant and laidback? The only time it sounded this way was when it wasn't given enough power. Drive it properly and those characteristics falls to the wayside. Neutral, yes. Distant and laidback? Maybe if matched with less powerful amps which unfortunately is about 80% (in my estimation) of the headphone amps out there. Dedicated or otherwise.

 

[dave-the-rave]

I agree with jon's first post on this thread. I have Senn 580's and W100's, running them both thru a Creek OBH-11. My first impression was that the W100's were much more exciting, with a more "in your face" sound than the 580's, but without the Grado stridency. Over time, however, the spaciousness of the W100 soundstage started to sound phony to me, like the "live" setting of my pcdp's equalizer, with everything thrown to the outer edges of the stage, which seems to make vocals recede in the mix. With the Senn's, everything's in the right place. While auditioning a Sugden Headmaster with both 'phones, Lucinda Williams gave me goosebumps thru the Senn's with the title track of "Essence," while the W100's did not. At that point, I was ready to ditch the wood. Yet... the W100's recreate the sound of instruments in a truly special way. On the HDCD remaster of Mike Oldfield's "Ommadawn," the different guitars sound like real guitars being played right next to your ears; the W100's communicate the emotion of the guitar in Pink Floyd's "Echoes" (the track on 'Meddle') more than the 580's.

My summary: Different 'phones for different folks. I agree that the choice of material matters. I agree that system matching matters. I also think there's room for more than one "right" choice. We all love the notion that there is a "holy grail" system, like a Melos Gold + Sony R10, that sounds great on everything from classical to techno, but I'm not sure it exists. An analogy: If I could afford it, I'd have 3 or 4 different vehicles in my garage: A Porsche convertible for twisty roads on nice days, a 4x4 SUV for bad roads and bad weather, a BMW 750 to drive NY to LA. Is there one ideal vehicle that is absolutely best for every task and every road/weather condition? (An Audi A8 Quattro covers a lot of it, but it's not a convertible and it's not a nimble sportscar.) Anyway, enough of that.

We'll all keep buying and trying new equipment, hooking up and trading off. (As my wife said, "Headphone amplifier? Didn't you just buy a headphone amplifier?!?") As long as you can afford it and don't obsess to the point where it interferes with your enjoyment of music or your family dynamics, relax and have fun. In fact, you may find that taking a week off from this website, as wonderful and communal and valuable as it is, can freshen your perspective on the value of the equipment that you're already listening to. Cheers.

 

[dngl]

Quote:

Originally posted by The Quality Guru Wow, it seems that all of the HD600 lovers are rather hard to convert . . . not too many of them have given in to the persuasive power of the W100 . . I personally think that one reason most HD600 lovers don't like the W100 as much as their Senn is because of the constrasting style of presentation of each 'phone. In fact, I think that these two 'phones are almost opposites. The HD600 has a distant, laid-back, neutral presentation while the W100 has an up-front (though not usually abrasive like Grados) musical, coloured presentation that really does differ very much from the Senn's sound. It's just my theory.

I wouldn't call myself an HD600 lover... I do use my senns more than any other phone, but I still have my beefs with them (see original post). The problem with the w100s is the treble spike and mid coloration... sometimes the colorations sound really nice (in mainstream rock music) but other times it sounds like crap (nicely recorded classical). So it depends on the recording as to whether or not I like the w100s... the reason I use the senns is that they never sound like crap; they just lack some involvement in the mainstream rock music (which is fixed with the clou which wrecks the soundstage and tone... ouch my head!).

 

[JML]

Jon, I know you know we think the W100 improves with age -- like us -- but the treble smooths out and the bass gets better.

It's fascinating to read the different impressions of these phones. I don't presume to speak for Tomcat, but he listens to a good deal of classical music, and he loves the W100. I listen to, well, what I listened to in college in the 1970s, and folk/celtic/acoustic, and I love the W100.

I keep coming back to their versatility and price. While they sing with an amp like the Corda or the EMP, at least to some of us, they don't need a cable swap, or more expensive tubed amplification, and work well with far less exalted sources, so I think they're more of a best buy than the Senns.

But they've definitely arrived as a serious alternative to Team Sennheiser or Team Grado in the "expensive but not stratospheric" price range. In many ways, they're between the two as far as characteristics go, as you noted.

 

[kelly]

One thing I can tell you is that generally speaking, the W100 advocates are a much nicer lot of folks than the W2002 people and I appreciate that you guys don't get bent out of shape when someone like me comes along with a contrary view.

One thing I'd like to really strongly suggest though, is that those of you who dig the W100 would probably LOVE the W2002. It really is a lot different and to me a lot better. I know there's a big price jump there but if you're going to be dedicated to one set of cans and you're into that sound and don't mind the coloration of the W100, seriously think about tracking a pair of W2002 down.

 

[The Quality Guru]

Originally Posted by 88Sound
Quote:

. . the phones disappear, they become completely transparent, and you are in the studio or venue where the original recording takes place.

I can very much relate to this. I think that despite the colourations, in many instances, (mostly in jazz, rock, and acoustic music) the W100's do an excellent job of disappearing and making one believe they are truly at the studio.

Originally Posted by Dave-the-Rave
Quote:

Over time, however, the spaciousness of the W100 soundstage started to sound phony to me, like the "live" setting of my pcdp's equalizer, with everything thrown to the outer edges of the stage, which seems to make vocals recede in the mix.

I can also somewhat relate to this, for I think I can see how one might think that the W100 is "throwing everything to the outer edges of the stage." I do think that the W100 has a very wide style of presentation, definitely creating the image that instruments are widely spaced. Some of this I think can be attributed to the inherent nature of 'phones and their definite stereo seperation, but the W100 definitely does spread everything out more than other 'phones. I do not, however, think that this wide spacing of instruments makes the sonic picture created by the W100's all that much less believeable (alright, maybe a bit less). I think that it is just a different style of presentation, but not a 'wrong' style of presentation.

Quote:

We'll all keep buying and trying new equipment, hooking up and trading off. (As my wife said, "Headphone amplifier? Didn't you just buy a headphone amplifier?!?") As long as you can afford it and don't obsess to the point where it interferes with your enjoyment of music or your family dynamics, relax and have fun. In fact, you may find that taking a week off from this website, as wonderful and communal and valuable as it is, can freshen your perspective on the value of the equipment that you're already listening to. Cheers.

Very true words. It is also valuable information that we must remember for the future, to ease the upgrading syndrome and audiophilia syndrome that plagues a great many of us!

And, IMO, it really does come down to what YOU think, not what others do. I enjoy the sound of the W100's straight out of the headphone-out of my Dad's Denon CDP. Although there is no doubt about the fact that when I hear the W100's out of an EMP or a ZOTL, that my bliss-filled ignorance will be ended. For now though, Dave is right. Enjoy what you've got. Stop 'reviewing' your system and just listen to the MUSIC. Alright, I'll get off my soapbox and stop preaching . . . Goodbye now!

 

[JML]

Kelly, what do you want my wife to do to me?!?!

I love these phones, and I understand why other folks love other phones. It's the same with loudspeakers, at least it was when I could afford to buy any. What I don't understand are the reactions of some people on this forum who seem to think that the motto of Head-Fi should be like the immortal line, "There can be only one." (pun intended)

When I was younger, and had disposable income, I brought home these speakers to audition for purchase: Rogers LS3/5A, Spicas, Celestions with the metal dome tweeter, B&W DM-6 (I think that was the number, I forget, they were the pregnant speakers), KEF 104, Snell Type A, and some others. I ended up with Spendor BC-1 speakers I loved for years, until I changed them to Conrad-Johnson Synthesis LM-210s (because they were spiked and a baby would not move them around, unlike the Spendors, and I could get them unfinished and stain them to match furniture). All of those were -- and some still are -- great speakers, but they made compromises, the sort you'd find in Stereophile's Class B or C categories. Anything I can ever consider will make compromises with my bank account as well.

But they're all very, very musical. And the Senn HD-580/600 is musical, as is the ATH-W100.

Maybe this is in part an age-related thing. I've gotten several private messages from people who love the ATH-W100, or the W2002, and have gotten rid of their Sennheisers, and interestingly enough, a number are closer to my age than to high school. My 13-year old loves the V-6 better than my W100 or F1; and I can't listen to it at all.

C'est la vie.

 

[Calanctus]

Quote:

Originally posted by JML [snip] ...some people on this forum who seem to think that the motto of Head-Fi should be like the immortal line, "There can be only one." (pun intended)

OT amazing coincidence: just before dropping by this forum, I watched "Highlander" on DVD. Immortal line indeed! Too bad the sequels were so terrible.