[RRod]

For genres, I listen mostly to electronic (trip-hop, hip hop instrumentals, etc; Amon Tobin, Massive Attack, Blockhead, Boards of Canada), rock (metal and "regular" and classic is cool too, but nothing I've explored a whole lot yet), and some hip hop. I like a bit of everything else too, haven't tried classical yet though. I know that classic rock will likely be much better on older, more original vinyl pressings than anything.

 
It all comes down to the philosophy of the two masters, and your general like for the kind of changes that accompany vinyl. It's hard to point to current classical albums where you could make a comparison, since the whole vinyl "revolution" hasn't seemed to catch on there as much... thank god ^_^ I do know, as a historical example, that the famous Telarc recording of the 1812 overture was well known for wreaking havoc in vinyl setups; no such issues with the CD, which delivers the goods and asks if that's all the engineer had.

 

[nick_charles]

  It has too do a lot with LPs vs. Tubes because if you or the the digiphiles can live with the noise of tubes then you can very well live with the lesser noise of LP.
 
I would not include myself in the group of tube proponents, however a good tube amp can have a much better SNR than vinyl, i.e 85db to 100db is not out of the question (for example http://www.hifiandaudio.com/p88i.htm or http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/fanmusic-el34-veteran-tube-amplifier-hi-fi-single-ended-tube-amplifier.html) , vinyl will not manage that and vinyl will also have higher distortion on high frequencies often hitting 5 to 10% is you try and put big energy there.
 
but that is all beside the point
 
If a silent groove has noise that can be percibed from the listening point (does this include if using headphones ?) in the room then you got a bad TT, scratched, worn out, or blamished LP. I understand that with vinyl there is a mechanical noise that is part of the playing but not to the point of affecting the whole presentation of the music.
 
That is not my experience. I went to many high end audio studios and HiFi shows when I was a vinyl owner and my strong and consistent recollection was that the lead in groove was never silent, in fact at many studios like Billy Vee's in Lewisham and The Cornflake factory they would keep the amp volume on zero until the lead-in was finished, I recall they did that on the last TT I bought in the UK (a 1984 Rega Planar 3) . If you would like to digitize the lead in from you most pristine LP and upload it I'll happily do a spectrum analysis on it
 
 
 

 
The above is the performance of a $15,000 moving coil cartridge under optimum conditions on a test rig playing back an immaculate perfectly centered disc the peak for the 330 Hz fundamental is at 0db , look where the harmonics are...-35db, -55db , -60db and so on also look at the noise profile it starts at about -77db drops to about -85db at 400 Hz stays at that level to 600 hz drops to -95db but after 4k rises again up to about -77db at 10K and this is a $15K cartridge under perfect conditions and it cannot even reproduce the two channels the same (this is a mono test LP) and this admittedly good for LP performance is achieved only with a single test track of 80 microns on the outer groove
 
 
 

 

[arnyk]

 
Do me a favor, may you put a graph that would show the noise of tubes vs. the noise of the LP (brand new or free of blemishes).  What is noisier? I know that tubes are noisy but I believe that tubes sound much better than any solid state amp.

 
 
Whether or not tubes sound better to you is not anything that any of us should ever discuss in a science-based forum because it is your personal preferences, and has nothing to do with science.
 
Whether or not the LP format is generally noisier than the CD format was what we were discussing, and that discussion can be based on science because it has nothing to do with your personal preferences.

 

[jtaylor991]

I don't really care about the lead-in groove or exit groove noise as much as I would if it were so dirty that it was damaging my stylus. Which reminds me: having a damaged stylus and causing permanent damage to my media has always been one of my greatest fears. I could ruin a good portion of my collection from simply playing if it went for a few months unnoticed.
 
 
I appreciate your sentiments, @judgmentday, but you've backed what you've said with nothing except "just listen", which is indeed the point, I agree. If I listen to both and the specs say the vinyl is way less accurate but (edit: digital) sounds totally unnatural vs feeling like I'm in the room on the vinyl, am I supposed to believe that the recording just sucks and I'm hallucinating any sort of spacial experience? That seems a bit silly to me, I'd rather cater to the thought that there's a yet unmeasured or purely subjective psychoacoustical affect inherent to vinyl or that master that is bringing more detail to the table and to my ears. Well, I guess you could kinda sorta argue that that's a "hallucination", but I think you all get what I mean even if I'm not the best at directly explaining it.
 
What I'm trying to grapple with is which format to use going forward. I'm not going to purchase the CD copy and the vinyl copy and do an A/B on every single one (although that DR rating website seems like a decent start) and decide which one to keep every time, that's a bit ridiculous. I need to pick a prime format to target and then go to the other when I have specific knowledge that it is better.
 
So far, I have chosen vinyl for the sense of space it has given me. I listen to music to get a feel for being in another universe, just like a video game, well-written fiction book or (3D?) movie, so I'm a soundstage junkie you could say. I do like the big cover art and physical disc, but everything else about vinyl I simply hate: the cleaning and wear, expense and inconvenience, fragility, etc. I'd love to get away from it. The physical CD is fine for me too, and I am even willing to burn copies of digital downloads too later on. As I described, I've recently had experiences with digital that gave me a sense of space that I've only ever gotten from vinyl. This has made me reconsider vinyl being my "prime target" format, since the main reason that was the case is no longer exclusive to the format.
 
 
I'm essentially here to get "expert" opinions on what format to "target" and why, pertaining to this. To highlight my new thinking:
 

I'm starting to feel like if I hear it and it sounds great on digital streaming, it's going to sound just as good if not better on Redbook CD and vinyl too, and if it sounds (relatively) like crap, being on vinyl isn't going to make it a whole lot better at least.

 
How is this logic? It seems like based on that, I should go for CD unless it specifically sounds like something loudness-wars-y is going on. Which hopefully, I won't experience that much with the only genre that I listen to likely to get radio play being rock (or am I wrong on either that or radio play being a main factor in the first place?).
 
Senior Head-Fi'ers: what say you? Shall I continue under my previous assumption and dump money into an analog rig and time and effort into vinyl transfers?
 
I know this is subjective and my personal decision, I'm just looking for input. Maybe this would be better:
 
What do you mainly buy and why? Did you have the same preconceived notions as I? Do they still hold up for you? If you mainly use CD, are you satisfied with it compared to vinyl listening you have experienced?
 
Thanks for your time and words everyone! I appreciate it

 

 

[Sal1950]

  LP sounds much better though. No matter how they proclaim the CD of having these wonderful specs, still LP kills the CD.

I'm sorry sir's but you folks are seriously delusional. 
 
It's great fun and highly nostalgic to drive a 1963 Split Window Corvette, you would be the envy of millions.
But if you were to make the statement that the C2 Vette will out perform a 2015 C7 you'd be laughed off any forum.

 

[sonitus mirus]

  Which reminds me: having a damaged stylus and causing permanent damage to my media has always been one of my greatest fears. 

 
Back in the 70s and 80s I belonged to several record clubs where you paid 1 penny for 10 albums and then had to buy 10 albums at "regular" prices. (or something similar to this business model)  The first thing I always did when I received my new records was to record it to a high-quality metal cassette tape.   I was paranoid about scratching or degrading my albums.  For critical listening, or when I was drinking, I'd play the records on the turntable and crank up the volume.  It was awesome.  Though, when CDs became available, I always considered this to be the superior audio quality, and I was thrilled to be able to play them with absolutely no damage or degradation of the medium. 

 

[wtaylorbasil]

   
The graph shows the noise from a silent groove i.e before you even attempt to add a signal to it and shows a lot of inherent noise , if you would like me to post a graph of the noise levels recorded from digital silence I'll happily do so

nick,
 
I would be very interested to see the graph of noise level recorded from digital silence.
Thank you

 

[sonitus mirus]

  nick,
 
I would be very interested to see the graph of noise level recorded from digital silence.
Thank you

 
Seriously?  Nothing to see, or hear. 

 

[nick_charles]

  nick,
 
I would be very interested to see the graph of noise level recorded from digital silence.
Thank you

 
 

 
Courtesy of http://www.delback.co.uk/lp-cdr.htm

 

[Exacoustatowner]

It all comes down to the philosophy of the two masters, and your general like for the kind of changes that accompany vinyl. It's hard to point to current classical albums where you could make a comparison, since the whole vinyl "revolution" hasn't seemed to catch on there as much... thank god ^_^ I do know, as a historical example, that the famous Telarc recording of the 1812 overture was well known for wreaking havoc in vinyl setups; no such issues with the CD, which delivers the goods and asks if that's all the engineer had.

When I bought my first CD player in 1984 that was the test record and CD compared. Wow! Bye bye to vinyl!

 

[judgmentday]

  I don't really care about the lead-in groove or exit groove noise as much as I would if it were so dirty that it was damaging my stylus. Which reminds me: having a damaged stylus and causing permanent damage to my media has always been one of my greatest fears. I could ruin a good portion of my collection from simply playing if it went for a few months unnoticed.
 
 
I appreciate your sentiments, @judgmentday, but you've backed what you've said with nothing except "just listen", which is indeed the point, I agree. If I listen to both and the specs say the vinyl is way less accurate but (edit: vinyl) sounds totally unnatural vs feeling like I'm in the room on the vinyl, am I supposed to believe that the recording just sucks and I'm hallucinating any sort of spacial experience? That seems a bit silly to me, I'd rather cater to the thought that there's a yet unmeasured or purely subjective psychoacoustical affect inherent to vinyl or that master that is bringing more detail to the table and to my ears. Well, I guess you could kinda sorta argue that that's a "hallucination", but I think you all get what I mean even if I'm not the best at directly explaining it.
 
What I'm trying to grapple with is which format to use going forward. I'm not going to purchase the CD copy and the vinyl copy and do an A/B on every single one (although that DR rating website seems like a decent start) and decide which one to keep every time, that's a bit ridiculous. I need to pick a prime format to target and then go to the other when I have specific knowledge that it is better.
 
So far, I have chosen vinyl for the sense of space it has given me. I listen to music to get a feel for being in another universe, just like a video game, well-written fiction book or (3D?) movie, so I'm a soundstage junkie you could say. I do like the big cover art and physical disc, but everything else about vinyl I simply hate: the cleaning and wear, expense and inconvenience, fragility, etc. I'd love to get away from it. The physical CD is fine for me too, and I am even willing to burn copies of digital downloads too later on. As I described, I've recently had experiences with digital that gave me a sense of space that I've only ever gotten from vinyl. This has made me reconsider vinyl being my "prime target" format, since the main reason that was the case is no longer exclusive to the format.
 
 
I'm essentially here to get "expert" opinions on what format to "target" and why, pertaining to this. To highlight my new thinking:
 
 
How is this logic? It seems like based on that, I should go for CD unless it specifically sounds like something loudness-wars-y is going on. Which hopefully, I won't experience that much with the only genre that I listen to likely to get radio play being rock (or am I wrong on either that or radio play being a main factor in the first place?).
 
Senior Head-Fi'ers: what say you? Shall I continue under my previous assumption and dump money into an analog rig and time and effort into vinyl transfers?
 
I know this is subjective and my personal decision, I'm just looking for input. Maybe this would be better:
 
What do you mainly buy and why? Did you have the same preconceived notions as I? Do they still hold up for you? If you mainly use CD, are you satisfied with it compared to vinyl listening you have experienced?
 
Thanks for your time and words everyone! I appreciate it

 

My advice is for you to go this forum:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=c511f142cb7ac310143c1077c959daf0&f=28
These guys will give you better advice. People in this forum don't know anything about vinyl other than bashing it. It's just a waste of time.  This will be my last post about vinyl in here.  Head-Fi does not have a dedicated forum for Vinyl or TT, all they talk here is about headphones and digital crap. Have a good life though.

 

[jtaylor991]

 
My advice is for you to go this forum:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=c511f142cb7ac310143c1077c959daf0&f=28
These guys will give you better advice. People in this forum don't know anything about vinyl other than bashing it. It's just a waste of time.  This will be my last post about vinyl in here.  Head-Fi does not have a dedicated forum for Vinyl or TT, all they talk here is about headphones and digital crap. Have a good life though.

 
I went ahead and made a thread over there too. Thanks for the advice! You have a nice life as well, buddy

 

[arnyk]

 
My advice is for you to go this forum:
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=c511f142cb7ac310143c1077c959daf0&f=28
These guys will give you better advice. People in this forum don't know anything about vinyl other than bashing it. It's just a waste of time.  This will be my last post about vinyl in here.  Head-Fi does not have a dedicated forum for Vinyl or TT, all they talk here is about headphones and digital crap. Have a good life though.

 
I've had posts deleted by the moderators for making insulting global generalizations like this: 
 
"People in this forum don't know anything about vinyl other than bashing it."
 
Obviously, there are people here who have all kinds of different opinions and experiences with vinyl and the above post is probably more about frustration caused by inability to resolve differences in opinion by amicable means, not personal mental deficiencies.
 
There are two kinds of discussions - those that are based on reliable facts, and those that are based on personal opinions. It is cool when personal opinions are informed by reliable facts, but not everybody can swing that way.
 
The reliable facts about vinyl are that as a medium it is a deeply flawed medium when sonic accuracy is the most important criteria, which is why digital audio exists in the first place.
 
However, the influence of the human element in the production and listening to recordings is such that it can overwhelm those technical limitations.

 

[Exacoustatowner]

   
Back in the 70s and 80s I belonged to several record clubs where you paid 1 penny for 10 albums and then had to buy 10 albums at "regular" prices. (or something similar to this business model)  The first thing I always did when I received my new records was to record it to a high-quality metal cassette tape.   I was paranoid about scratching or degrading my albums.  For critical listening, or when I was drinking, I'd play the records on the turntable and crank up the volume.  It was awesome.  Though, when CDs became available, I always considered this to be the superior audio quality, and I was thrilled to be able to play them with absolutely no damage or degradation of the medium. 

I never belonged to the "Columbia Record Club", but my experience was the same otherwise.

 

[nick_charles]

 
These guys will give you better advice. People in this forum don't know anything about vinyl other than bashing it. 

 
Actually several people here know a great deal about vinyl as we have several engineers and certainly several people here who are/have been involved in recording/mastering for vinyl, plus we have those involved in audio testing , we have a lot of people who grew up with vinyl and who understand its attractions as a psychological artifact and its limitations, we also have people with a knowledge of physics/electronics which helps  understand some of the limits it has.
 
Time and again myself and others have given you excellent objective information and real world empirical data about the actual performance characteristics of vinyl and you just ignore it and say you prefer vinyl. If you prefer vinyl that is of course your privilege but you insist on trying to imbue it with some magical/mystical properties that compensate for its manifold limitations. It is a medium with certain limits, these do not seem to bother you, fine, for others the weaknesses of vinyl make it unsuitable for high fidelity audio.
 
When it was all we had many of us (self included) made the most of it spending hours trying to maximize the performance and ameliorate issues such as resonance and acoustic feedback with expensive shelves and equipment isolation stands, hours spent adjusting tracking weights, cartridge angles, arm-heights and anti-skating devices, lubing and replacing bearings and belts, cleaning and anti-stat rituals and so on. 
 
Then CD arrived and all the horrible noise just went away, classical music had a better dynamic range and had none of the awful distracting grunty - a real blessing