Vinyl : static on one side?

[papomaster]

I changed my Thorens Td-160 for a Music Hall MMF-5 (not the newer 5.1 version), and after setting the TT balance, cartridge tracking force and anti-skating to get equal signals from the left and right channels, there are some quircks to the sound that get my attention too much to let me enjoy the music :

1) There seems to be static on the left side of the groove of most of my LPs (as I hear some pink noise coming from the extreme left), that gets going after a few second of play : when I put the cartridge down there is none for about 2 seconds, then it builds up in intensity and after 5 seconds it reaches annoying levels.

2) there is an on and off deep sound that comes while spinning records (usually once every turn, so I guess is it related to the records shape), but it's quite loud, even on flat records. On slightly warped records it quickly becomes unbearable.

How should I get rid of these things?

 

[derekbmn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif How should I get rid of these things?

Go back to the Thorens....

1) To me it sounds like an alignment problem that needs to be checked and rechecked. I'm assuming you aligned it yourself ??

2) Hmmm....a noisey bearing comes to my mind first. Check the well and make sure it is devoid of any debris (even VERY tiny debris) and has the proper amount of oil etc.

or go back to the Thorens

....Please tell me you kept it. I would take a TD-160 over an MMF-5... but that's just me.

 

[memepool]

Rhythmic thumping in the middle of records sounds like pressing errors but if it's on all records it wasn't on before then it does sound like an issue with the bearing. Decks like this have better more modern designed tonearms but economise on the main bearing quality. You'd really need something like a Michell to get anywhere near the quality of your old TD-160 in this regard so I'd also have kept the Thorens.

 

[papomaster]

I actually prefer the sound of the MMF-5 by a fair margin, even by sacrificing the extra-vinylly sound that the thorens had : more detail, better soundstage, more texture to sounds, less hazy overall.

For the arm and cartridge adjustments, they were factory installed and adjusted, and from all the reviews that I saw on the web, it should be good. I can check it nonetheless just to make sure it's not bent or something.

For the bearing, how to I re-grease it? Removing it or greasing it while it is on the TT?

For static, should I invest in cleaning fluids, or it doesn't add much to dry cleaning?

 

[earwicker7]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif For static, should I invest in cleaning fluids, or it doesn't add much to dry cleaning?

Get a Furutech De-Stat. Expensive, but well worth it.

Or you could try the Milty, which is 1/4 the price, but 100 times the hassle.

 

[ssportclay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif I actually prefer the sound of the MMF-5 by a fair margin, even by sacrificing the extra-vinylly sound that the thorens had : more detail, better soundstage, more texture to sounds, less hazy overall. For the arm and cartridge adjustments, they were factory installed and adjusted, and from all the reviews that I saw on the web, it should be good. I can check it nonetheless just to make sure it's not bent or something. For the bearing, how to I re-grease it? Removing it or greasing it while it is on the TT? For static, should I invest in cleaning fluids, or it doesn't add much to dry cleaning?

The better sound you are hearing from the MMF-5 over the Thorens is due to it's better more modern tonearm and wiring. I have static issues during the winter months which take place while cleaning off the record. I use a Disc Washer with about 3 drops of distilled water. The static always goes away once the tonearm drops.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif I actually prefer the sound of the MMF-5 by a fair margin, even by sacrificing the extra-vinylly sound that the thorens had : more detail, better soundstage, more texture to sounds, less hazy overall. ....For the bearing, how to I re-grease it? Removing it or greasing it while it is on the TT?

All you have gained with the MMF-5, depending on which version of the TD160 you have, is a better designed more modern tonearm with better wiring. What you have lost is one of the finest main bearings in the business on the actual thorens motorboard (the table itself).

It could be that the rhythmic thumping you are hearing is just the arm on the MMF-5 picking up more surface noise on LPs than you are used to and highlighting bad pressings but you seem to be suggesting that this is occuring on all your records.
If that is the case what you are hearing is bearing noise which on a new table like this can only be attributable to a manufacturing flaw, and if this is the case you need to return the table and get it replaced.

The MMF tables come from the same factory in Czechia where Pro-Ject tables are made. Some of the cheaper modern Thorens badged tables are made there too, but if you check the difference in cost between these and the new TD-160HD that will give you some idea of the difference in quality of engineering.
There is no substitute for this and it's what you pay for on a more expensive turntable. Modern tonearms like the Regas and the better quality one-piece carbonfibre Pro-Ject arms, which are probably what is on the MMF-5, are much more revealing designs than the old multi jointed '70s arms and this is what you will also see on the new TD160HD.

The obvious solution therefore is to just fit a better arm to the original TD160. There are many other refinements obviously (although probably not 4000USD worth) on the new TD160HD version but the arm makes a massive difference.

 

[derekbmn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1) There seems to be static on the left side of the groove of most of my cds

Well there is the problem...isn't gonna work.

Left side...have you tried decreasing anti-skate a bit ?

 

[papomaster]

Actually, I traded the Thorens for the Music Hall (and paid the difference, of course). So no more thorens tweaking....

For bearing maintenance, what kind of oil should I use, and where do I buy it? I'd prefer any kind of commercially available oil since I would have to order any audiophile oil online and pay alot more for the shipping than the oil itself. Same goes for the cleaning fluid.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif For bearing maintenance, what kind of oil should I use, and where do I buy it? I'd prefer any kind of commercially available oil since I would have to order any audiophile oil online and pay alot more for the shipping than the oil itself. Same goes for the cleaning fluid.

If the bearing is actually that noisy on a modern table like this, it's a manufacturing flaw and beyond repair I'm afraid. Oil isn't going to help.
If you bought it as a trade-in complain to the store and they should replace it.

It's never going to be as quiet as Thorens but the thumping noise you mentioned sounds like it's distorted somehow, which could also have been caused by being dropped during shipping I suppose, but this isn't that likely.

 

[papomaster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssportclay /img/forum/go_quote.gif The better sound you are hearing from the MMF-5 over the Thorens is due to it's better more modern tonearm and wiring. I have static issues during the winter months which take place while cleaning off the record. I use a Disc Washer with about 3 drops of distilled water. The static always goes away once the tonearm drops.

Do you use the water on the record, then wipe it while spinning?

Btw the rattling sound that I hear on most records is pretty faint, like a pen being swooped on a table compared to an orchestra playing (with music playing at moderate levels), but it is still noticeable.

I traded it to a guy who had hand-bought it to a closing shop around montreal, so I can't go back to that specific shop to correct issues. I will try to fix it myself and if nothing works I'll go back to the distributor. I'll go try different antiskating options later this evening.

 

[4heckssake]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif 1) There seems to be static on the left side of the groove of most of my cds How should I get rid of these things?

I'm surprised no one has picked this one up...therein lies a problem if you are playing your CDs on your turntable

Sorry couldn't resist, I;m sure you mean LPs...geez I hope so

 

[papomaster]

fixed.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by papomaster /img/forum/go_quote.gif Btw the rattling sound that I hear on most records is pretty faint, like a pen being swooped on a table compared to an orchestra playing (with music playing at moderate levels), but it is still noticeable.

Bearing noise is meant to be confined to below 10hz so it doesn't interfere with the tonearm / cartridge resonance frequncy. You really need a scope to measure this.

You could try listening to the plinth through a doctors stethoscope to see if you can hear any grinding noises. Cone flap on your speakers is also indicative of these low frequencies being excited.
On older decks where the bearing tolerances often arn't quite so tight they used heavier oil or grease which can have a larger impact on the sound. Modern belt drive decks usually have very tight tolerances so only lighter oils are commonly used. Also there is a lot more plastic used in cheaper decks obviously which can be distorted or damaged by foreign matter much more easily.

You can try cleaning out the bearing well with long cotton buds (Q-tips) and isopropyl alcohol and then replacing the oil. A lot of people recommend synthetic engine oils like Mobil One or Redline. A light machine oil like that used on something like a sewing machine would also be suitable. You need about 5ml. It's possible that dirt can get into the bearing well and cause noise issues if there is a lot of fine dust in the air. A concern in somewhere like New Mexico but pretty unlikely in Canada I'd guess.

You can also check ebay for things like Teflon thrustplate upgrades which are supplied by a company called SRMtech for decks like the Regas and may also work on a Pro-Ject/Music Hall.

But since this isn't an old deck from a defunct manufacturer I'd be tempted just to contact Music Hall directly and see what they advise. A new bearing might be the simplest option.

 

[papomaster]

I played a bit with the anti-skating earlier this evening, and was able to get rid of the static on all the records I put, so one problem solved.

For the contant rattling sound, I looked at the bearing and I saw some interesting stuff : it is only a machined spindle, resting in a metal hole in the turntable housing. When I drop the bearing in the hole itself, it goes down slowly, and ends up with a popping sound, like some compressed air being popped out (or a fart). The part of the sub-platter which rests on the top of the hole is not made with the same material as the bearing itself. I didn't see any kind of oil on it, so I guess it is made to spin this way. However, when I spin it manually, when I make the motor spin the subplatter only or when I make the motor spin the subplatter and the platter, there is a slight scratching sound that comes from the bearing, so I guess that's where the unwanted sound is coming.

I'll try some different oils to see if it changes the sound.