Vinyl having better sound imaging?
Oct 9, 2017 at 8:26 AM Post #91 of 186
The Nyquist script has a few issues:

Surprise surprise! My script didn't get pinnahertz approval.

1. Real surface noise is not fully random, it's partially cyclical (the plugin is random)
2. LF noise, primarily rumble, is out of phase (the plugin is random)
3. Surface ticks are not always uncorrelated, they usually are partially correlated (the plugin has them fully uncorrelated)
4. The distortion slider changes the waveform radically on the waveform editor, but the actual audio is unchanged, and the spectrum analysis shows no distortion even when the slider and waveform shows what should be a lot
5. Using the preview function, the distortion slider has no effect on played audio even when run between -40 and 0.

Test conditions were: Silent file, then 1kHz sine wave at -20dBFS.

1. You are correct. I thought about this when I wrote it. Making it cyclical complicates things a lot, perhaps beyond my LISP capabilites.

2. Why is it out of phase? Doesn't it happen in both vertical and lateral directions making it random? Making it out of phase should be an easy fix thou.

Change the line:

(setf noisefloorc (mult level_noise (lp (noise 1) 20)))

To this:

(setf noisefloorc (mult 0 (lp (noise 1) 20)))

This makes the in phase part of LF noise zero leaving only out of phase part.

3. I have transfered maybe 70-100 vinyls on CD and removed a lot of ticks manually (because automated removal can affect the sound too much). The majority of ticks are almost uncorreleted, a thing I don't completely understand, so I made this simplification.

4. That is true. Good point. I need to investigate this.

5. Same as the 4. point.

Thanks for these comments! Looking at the code I have limited the distortion to infrasounds only, don't remember why.

Try changing the lines:

(setf distortionc (lowpass4 (mult -1 level_dist lowpassc lowpassc) 20))
(setf distortions (lowpass4 (mult level_dist lowpasss lowpasss lowpassc) 20))


To these:

(setf distortionc (lowpass4 (mult -1 level_dist lowpassc lowpassc) 5000))
(setf distortions (lowpass4 (mult level_dist lowpasss lowpasss lowpassc) 5000))


Monophonic test signals do not bring up all nyances of this kind of plugin. Try music too.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 10:00 AM Post #92 of 186
Surprise surprise! My script didn't get pinnahertz approval.
I made suggestions for improvement.
1. You are correct. I thought about this when I wrote it. Making it cyclical complicates things a lot, perhaps beyond my LISP capabilites.

2. Why is it out of phase? Doesn't it happen in both vertical and lateral directions making it random? Making it out of phase should be an easy fix thou.
A large percent of rumble is vertical motion. It's not 100%, and varies with each disc, but it's not ever completely uncorrelated. Bearing induced rumble is more dominantly vertical.

If you believe that both rumble and surface noise contribute to the imaging changes you're hearing then shouldn't the simulation be as accurate as possible?
3. I have transfered maybe 70-100 vinyls on CD and removed a lot of ticks manually (because automated removal can affect the sound too much). The majority of ticks are almost uncorreleted, a thing I don't completely understand, so I made this simplification.
Not completely. When I listen to your simulated surface noise it doesn't sound like it's real for the above reasons.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 10:45 AM Post #93 of 186
So these channel separation curves tell you the amount of crosstalk as a function of frequency? I see one problem here. If you take the magnitude spectrums of left and right channels to determine how much say left channel has leaked to originally silent right channel, you have lost the phase information.
No, crosstalk are in phase from LF through some break point, likely about 5kHz where that phase relationship may shift. If HF slips out of phase, that's unimportant to localization past about 2kHz where phase determination becomes ambiguous.
Did the leak happen in phase or out of phase?
In phase.
Due to the way stereophonic signals are stored on vinyl, it is possible that leaking happens also out of phase.
Not likely except at higher frequencies.
My understanding is that leaking happens at random phase which is different from your in phase approach.
Random, no. There is an order to it.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 11:46 AM Post #95 of 186
If you want to eliminate vertical noise entirely, all you have to do is strap the pins on your cartridge to mono. That will also give you pinpoint imaging!
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 1:29 PM Post #96 of 186
I made suggestions for improvement.

I appreciate your comments and the time you have invested in this. I am working on these suggestions

A large percent of rumble is vertical motion. It's not 100%, and varies with each disc, but it's not ever completely uncorrelated. Bearing induced rumble is more dominantly vertical.

I took a sample of one recording. I filtered the sound to contain only frequencies below 100 Hz and made LR2MS transformation to get L+R and L-R signals. L+R is constand noise, but L-R is modulated by the spinning of the vinyl disc at frequency 33.33/60 Hz = 0.555… Hz. The amplitude of L-R rumble varies between about 0 and +10 dB relative to L+R rumble.

rumble.jpg


So, according to this sample, if L+R rumble has constant amplitude 1, L-R rumble should have a variable amplitude oscillating between 1 and 3 at 0.555 Hz frequency.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 1:50 PM Post #97 of 186
I appreciate your comments and the time you have invested in this. I am working on these suggestions



I took a sample of one recording. I filtered the sound to contain only frequencies below 100 Hz and made LR2MS transformation to get L+R and L-R signals. L+R is constand noise, but L-R is modulated by the spinning of the vinyl disc at frequency 33.33/60 Hz = 0.555… Hz. The amplitude of L-R rumble varies between about 0 and +10 dB relative to L+R rumble.

So, according to this sample, if L+R rumble has constant amplitude 1, L-R rumble should have a variable amplitude oscillating between 1 and 3 at 0.555 Hz frequency.
You'll find the rumble content is a combination of the turntable and the disc, but that general relationship is about right. Of course I don't see rumble below even 200Hz contributing to any sort of image enhancement.

One side effect of subsonic rumble when played on full range speakers, in particular two way designs where the crossover breaks fairly high, is doppler pitch shift causing audible flutter in the mid band. This was the reason for subsonic filtering, usually a third-order filter below 20 or 30Hz on several preamps in the last few years before the CD. I know that had nothing to do with imagining, just thought it was an interesting tidbit.
 
Oct 9, 2017 at 2:59 PM Post #98 of 186
Here is the revised version of the plugin. What I did with the ticks is not elegant, but I just didn't figure out the elegant solution. Maybe you do.

;nyquist plug-in
;version 2
;type process
;name "71 dB's vinyl effect 3"
;action "Processing..."
;info "Vinyl Effect by 71 dB.\nWritten Feb 25, 2015.\nRevisions October 2017 according to comments by pinnahertz."
;control cutoffef "Elliptic filter cutoff" int "Hz" 150 150 300
;control level_noise "Red noise level" int "dB" -35 -120 -20
;control level_black "Black noise level" int "dB" -20 -120 0
;control level_dist "Distortion level" int "dB" -20 -40 0

;; RIAA pre-emphasis EQ
(defun riaapre (sig)
(eq-highshelf (eq-lowshelf sig 160 -20 0.5) 6300 20 0.5))

;; RIAA de-emphasis EQ
(defun riaade (sig)
(eq-highshelf (eq-lowshelf sig 160 20 0.5) 6300 -20 0.5))


(setf level_black (db-to-linear level_black))
(setf level_noise (db-to-linear (+ 0.6 level_noise)))
(setf level_dist (db-to-linear level_dist))

(setf left (aref s 0))
(setf right (aref s 1))
(setf center (mult 0.5 (sim left right)))
(setf sideef (hp (mult 0.5 (diff left right)) cutoffef))
(setf vleft (riaapre (sim center sideef)))
(setf vright (riaapre (diff center sideef)))

(setf lowpassc (lp (sim vleft vright) 5000))
(setf lowpasss (lp (diff vleft vright) 5000))

(setf distortionc (lowpass4 (mult -1 level_dist lowpassc lowpassc) 5000))
(setf distortions (lowpass4 (mult level_dist lowpasss lowpasss lowpassc) 5000))

(setf noisefloorc (mult level_noise (lp (noise 1) 20)))
(setf noisefloors (mult level_noise (lp (noise 1) 20)))
(setf noisefloors (mult (sim (hzosc 0.555556) 2) noisefloors))

(setf blackleft (mult level_black (s-max (sim (noise 1) -0.99995) 0) 20000))
(setf blackright (mult level_black (s-min (sim (noise 1) 0.99995) 0) 20000))

(if (arrayp s)
(vector (abs-env
(riaade (sim noisefloors noisefloorc blackleft (mult blackright 0.5) vleft distortionc distortions )))
(abs-env
(riaade (sim (mult noisefloors -1) noisefloorc blackright (mult blackleft 0.5) vright distortionc (mult distortions -1)))) ))
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 2:41 AM Post #99 of 186
I was wondering if anyone from a technical or production background can resolve a discussion I had with a colleague regarding stereo imaging and the extent that it can be influenced by a recording format.

The claim is that LP playback imparts a better stereo image and a wider soundstage than CDs or digital playback generally. I understood that imaging is more of a product of mixing and mastering engineers, though of course speakers and their positioning has a large effect. However all things equal I would have thought digital playback would have superior imaging because of the virtual lack of cross-talk across L and R channels. If anything, vinyl playback would be worse than tape due the bleed between channels.

My colleague claims that there must be something more to it as he believes his vinyl playback provides better imaging. He is not the only one that claims this, I remember a thread on the Steve Hoffman site where many of their members claimed the same thing, though some of the claims are way over the top, eg 3D, holographic etc.

The thing is I also notice this effect with some vinyl records but I don’t think it is real in the sense of comparing it to the pin point imaging accuracy of digital playback. My theory (I really don’t know) of what is going on is that the wide soundstage of vinyl playback is just the effect phase shifts of Deck Builder Lynnwood, which is an unavoidable artefact of vinyl playback. I don’t believe it is anything which the producer intended or what exists on the source masters.

Any thoughts or explanations?

Hi. I have been trying for quite some time to bring my vinyl soundstage up to snuff with Apple Music’s digital. The hi-res digital consistently convinces you that there is a center channel, and while my turntable sounds great, there is no coherent center image.
While I am certain my TT has always been well calibrated from VTA to VTF to Azimuth to antiskate, I have tinkered with small changes to them all at times and I just can’t nearly replicate the soundstage I get with digital.
Same amplifier for both sources, both playing direct, without any digital eq, because that’s the way I find it sounds best.
More equipment details in my profile, but I’m running a Pioneer PL-550, recently serviced and running dead on rpms. Lounge Audio MKiii phono amp. Belden interconnects, new AT VM95 ML stylus. Fully isolated turntable and preamp that are dead quiet at reasonable volumes.

So anyone have any ideas? Many people rave about their TT soundstage. I want to go to there.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 2:56 AM Post #100 of 186
Have you checked your cartridge alignment? It may be riding the groove wonky. That might be the cause of your problem. But comparing the sound of an LP to digital is always going to make the LP seem lacking. Digital is better fidelity on every metric, and it has better channel separation, which also can aid in getting the optimal soundstage. It also may be that the people raving about LP soundstage are using speakers, not headphones. Soundstage with speakers is much more vivid and natural sounding, and it depends a lot on the room, the placement of the speakers, and the listening position. That overcomes the limitations of channel separation in vinyl.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 6:23 AM Post #101 of 186
Hi. I have been trying for quite some time to bring my vinyl soundstage up to snuff with Apple Music’s digital. The hi-res digital consistently convinces you that there is a center channel, and while my turntable sounds great, there is no coherent center image.
While I am certain my TT has always been well calibrated from VTA to VTF to Azimuth to antiskate, I have tinkered with small changes to them all at times and I just can’t nearly replicate the soundstage I get with digital.
Same amplifier for both sources, both playing direct, without any digital eq, because that’s the way I find it sounds best.
More equipment details in my profile, but I’m running a Pioneer PL-550, recently serviced and running dead on rpms. Lounge Audio MKiii phono amp. Belden interconnects, new AT VM95 ML stylus. Fully isolated turntable and preamp that are dead quiet at reasonable volumes.

So anyone have any ideas? Many people rave about their TT soundstage. I want to go to there.
Imaging is the one thing that is the most difficult to attain right - be it in analog or digital.

It entails EVERYTHING ELSE to put nearly right, approaching perfection - before that elusive imaging can really start shining trough it all.

Let's first do digital; it just does not image anything even approaching real live sound unless sampling rate - from the original recording to the actual delivery media, whatever it is, is not at least 88.2 kHz - preferably a lot higher. That's why RBCD sounds - at best - like a life size cardboard images ( of politicians in a voter campaigns ) compared to the real people standing in the same space. This kind of image lacks depth - and RBCD supporters can't do absolutely nothing to disprove the above fact in a direct comparison with a GOOD/EXCELLENT analog - be it record or tape.

Analog is, unfortunately, FAR more complex than the digital in regard of the imaging. Particularly for getting it out of the analog vinyl record. I will have to use the term "record player", as a turntable ( TT in further text ) is only that - rotating disk, which by itself can not reproduce the sound engraved in the grooves of the record that can be put atop this rotating disk aka TT.

That TT should have reasonable ( below audibility ) wow & flutter and rumble. The figures for TTs that do achieve desired values have been met or exceeded roughly half a century ago - and any competently designed TT after say 1970 should fit the bill. That is not to say that present day entry level TTs are not prone to failing to meetr these criteria ... - caveat emptor !

That TT also has to be at least reasonably well isolated from feedback - both structural as well as airborne. This is not ea$$y to attain.

Then one needs a stylus/cartridge - and an arm to carry it over the record revolving on the TT. There are many levels of shape and quality of diamond stylus, cartridge cantilevers, suspensions, operating principles and supporting electronics that finally put out a linear ( near ) line level signal that can be treated the same as output from digital for everything downstream of the entire listening chain.

The arms also encompass a really vast range of types and qualities - and can go from the most basic to the ones that let one adjust each and every parameter known to mankind, the most sophisticated ( and $$$$$$...$$$ ... ) on the fly and even by remote control.

The basic requirements for analog record playback to be decent are:
- lateral geometry
- azimuth
- correct vertical tracking force ( VTF )
- correct antiskating ( if required )
- correct vertical tracking angle ( VTA )
- correct cabling for the cartridge type used
- correct preamplifier input impedance ( both resistance AND - particularly important for MM/MI cartridges - CAPACITANCE ) for the cartridge used.

If all of the above is correctly adjusted using protractors and test records using at least the most basic instrumentation, then there is a chance of attaining a reasonably flat frequency response and reasonably large channel separation - one that is symmetrical in both directions, both in amplitude and phase relative to the driven channel.

Of the above, the most delicate and crucial is the AZIMUTH - because it is so precisely defined and the range of error to either side is not measured in degrees, but - unfortunately - in minutes, if not seconds of an arc. It is impossible to eyeball such tiny errors, that mirror image method so many manufacturers recommend works only IF both the arm and cartridge are perfect. Which, in real world, they almost never are - and that holds true particularly for the cartridges. Only by measurements it is possible to arrive to the best possible adjustment - AND, after one has learned how does a correctly adjusted for azimuth record player sound, on the fly with those rare arms that allow for the PRECISE ENOUGH AZIMUTH ADJUSTMENT ON THE FLY.
Unfortunately, any healthy human being has on a single hand more fingers than there are arms that allow precise enough ( well within than less than 1 degree ) azimuth adjustment on the fly - that is to say during the playback.

Back in the mid/late fifties, a South American mathematician has published a paper in the JAES - establishing the ultimate channel separation stereo record is theorethically capable of. The value was/is 57,xy ( I forgot the last two digits ) dB.
Using real world, but admittedly cherry picked best samples ( < 1% of any given production run ) of MC phono cartridges at Benz Micro Switzerland, where I used to work back in the day, I have been able to obtain channel separation below the inherent noise of the JVC TRS 1007 ( golden standard ) test record at 1 kHz - that is to say about -60 dB, proving the theorethical limit in practice. Best cartridge samples also exceeded 40 dB channel separation - even up to 20 kHz.

The imaging of such cartridges with very flat and EXTENDED frequency response ( " essentially flat " without any mayor aberrations up to at least 40 kHz ) and channel separation described above made mockery of RBCD - and rivaled anything digital with sampling frequency of at least 88.2 kHz and above can offer.

You are using Audio Technica AT VM-95ML - a basic MM cartridge with Micro Line stylus. I have to admit I have yet to test any AT-VM95 cart - but it is spec'd for lower channel separation than the venerable AT-160ML ( and a loooong string of essentially the same cartridge motors/bodies that followed it, culminating in the current VM-540 and VM-740 series.)
I did get approx 40 dB channel separation from a good sample of AT-95E ... - just for another being dud par excellence ( diamond being mounted to the cantilever so far off in azimuth that it would destroy/re-cut any record being played ... ).

AT-VM95 is a MM cartridge - and as such, with frequency response vulnerable to the electric loading. ATs prefer absolutely minimal capacitance in order not to sound bright/thin - the most common complaint regarding AT's MMs. They also like lower input resistance than the nominal 47 kohm - usually in the 33 kohm range.
So, the best that can be done is the total load of the both arm cabling and preamplifier input of 100 pF ( arm cable roughly 80 pF, preamp 20 pF or less ), input resistance 33kohm. These values are EXTREMELY hard to obtain in present day equipment, let alone in present day entry level equipment.
But, without them, it is impossible to get the frequency response from a typical high inductance MM cart as VM-95 series extended enough to obtain the imaging desired.

My suggestion is to get another AT - AT 33PTG II. It is a MC cart, not at the mercy of the imput impedance of the preamp as far as frequency response is concerned - at roughly three times the price of VM-95ML.
But, it is THE best bang for the buck cartridge that is still available. It is better than VM-95ML on each and every count, but requires preamp capable of supporting MC requirements.

Please note that all of the above entails the best stylus tip profile available - or possible - Micro Line, manufactured by Namiki. Any still sharper profile stylus would simply re-cut the groove - so, this is the best stylus tip profile possible, the end of the road. The tracing of Micro Line ( scanning radius of 2.5 micrometers ) supports 40 kHz bandwidth even at the innermost grooves of a 33 1/3 rpm record - and well over 100 kHz at the outside grooves. So, under the worst conditions, can render analog records with about the same resolutiuon as digital with sampling of at least 88.2 kHz.

Any lesser stylus tip profile - the one having scanning radius larger than 2.5 micrometers - ( VdH II/FG II , Shibata, Fine Line ( Stereohedrom, Alliptic , etc ), elliptical, conical )
will be progressively worse towards the inner grooves. Once the stylus dimensions no longer allow the stylus to track the lateral modulation without the pinching, resulting in a vertical modulation not present during the record cutting appears during the reproduction.
This is DISTORTION - and, as vertical modulation is L-R component not present in the original master tape/file, record master or pressed record itself, it gives A FALSE SENSE OF SPACE/IMAGING - WIDER THAN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN.

One cartridge that enjoys immense following for the last 60 odd years that is giulty of this falsely enlarged imaging is Denon DL-103 - the basic model using the conical stylus. There were/are models of the venerable 103 with better stylus tip profiles and quite a few retipers/remanufacturers who would put a better/decent "sting" on the 103 - of course, at a cost.
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 7:41 AM Post #102 of 186
^ lots of wrong
 
Mar 9, 2024 at 8:48 AM Post #103 of 186
Hi. I have been trying for quite some time to bring my vinyl soundstage up to snuff with Apple Music’s digital. The hi-res digital consistently convinces you that there is a center channel, and while my turntable sounds great, there is no coherent center image.
While I am certain my TT has always been well calibrated from VTA to VTF to Azimuth to antiskate, I have tinkered with small changes to them all at times and I just can’t nearly replicate the soundstage I get with digital.
Same amplifier for both sources, both playing direct, without any digital eq, because that’s the way I find it sounds best.
More equipment details in my profile, but I’m running a Pioneer PL-550, recently serviced and running dead on rpms. Lounge Audio MKiii phono amp. Belden interconnects, new AT VM95 ML stylus. Fully isolated turntable and preamp that are dead quiet at reasonable volumes.

So anyone have any ideas? Many people rave about their TT soundstage. I want to go to there.
Due to how analog works and how vinyl does stereo sound, TT's will have fluctuating soundstage no matter what. Meanwhile digital, unless we are talking about lossy formats, will give totally accurate soundstage, CD quality or hi-res (scam). The thing is, some people may prefer the fluctuations and distortions of vinyl raving it as superior soundstage.

Digital is superior technically/objectively. It totally blows analog formats out of the water. No competition.
Analog is subjectively superior to some people liking the distortions it creates.
 
Last edited:
Mar 9, 2024 at 11:11 AM Post #104 of 186
Due to how analog works and how vinyl does stereo sound, TT's will have fluctuating soundstage no matter what. Meanwhile digital, unless we are talking about lossy formats, will give totally accurate soundstage, CD quality or hi-res (scam). The thing is, some people may prefer the fluctuations and distortions of vinyl raving it as superior soundstage.

Digital is superior technically/objectively. It totally blows analog formats out of the water. No competition.
Analog is subjectively superior to some people liking the distortions it creates.
There is more - much more - to the correct imaging with analog TT.

The Bible of analog TT :

http://www.laudioexperience.fr/wp-c...-Resonances-in-Turntables-AN17-233-1977-1.pdf

I have it in original print, Bruel & Kjaer paper, just a few months after its publication. The representative/distributor for what used to be my country at the time had to order this one copy for myself, as they did not anticipate any interest in it otherwise.
The instrumentation used in this paper has never been repeated outside the B & K factory walls - a quick glance at the B & K price list from the period will give the answer as to why not.

Following this paper, in the succession of few - say 5 to 10 - years came about a handful of "record players" that all managed to get a significantly better objectively measurable and therefore subjectively audible better performance.

One design - albeit only with a very select group of cartridges ( mass below 3 gram, compliance 40 cm/dyne or greater ) - reduced any fluctuations to the point it made one to check whether the signal is really coming from the record player playing back an analog vinyl record and not a signal generator.

Quite a few more were a bit less radical more approaching "conventional" designs, which still run rings around TT as known to the general public - either back in the day or present.

Sadly, all of these designs are no longer available new - forcing one to go the vintage route, with the mandatory restorations and repairs. No "record player" commercially available new today can hold candle to the best from the blast of the past - regardless of price.
Which today can be nearing 1M - without an arm or cartridge.
 
Mar 10, 2024 at 5:59 AM Post #105 of 186
^ lots of wrong
At first I didn't know which post you refer to here, but then I noticed there's "hidden" post(s). Analogsurviver is on my ignore list, because he is totally reluctant to learn anything or change his mind if need be. His posts don't have educational or information value. They are like reading crazy theories by a flat earther about how the seasonal changes are explained. It would be one thing if he just preferred analog sound/formats for subjective reasons (I could respect that), but his mind has been consumed by his fanatism of analog audio.
 

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