[Wildcatsare1]

As long as manufactures think consumers want Sabre, that is what they will make. Hopefully the R2R revolution will push them to improve the sonics of brand, versus improved features (DSD looking at you).

 

[Wildcatsare1]

Yes the Lite DAC-83 intrgiues me - but after rolling through a hlaf dozen DACs over the years - I'm a tube DAC fan!  So I took a stock Lite DAC60 and did a series of heavy mods to it.  Coupled with some totl tubes - the sound quality has exceeded my highest expectionations. 

If you look at the Monarchy - they keep most of the stock caps from the DAC60.  And use the inexpensive (but decent) MKP red's as coupling caps ($20 caps).  I went whole hog - for couplers went for the totl Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil caps ($200).   But that was just the beginning...

One thing Olsher had incorrect -the tube stage is not a 'tube buffer' but an actual DC heated tube output stage -which is required by an R2R processor.  Some designs have a tube 'buffer' after the true opamp SS output stage - not the same.  This is a vain attempt to add tube liquidity and tone to the dryer, flatter SS opamp stage.

My DAC60 after mods:





Virtually every cap upgraded - new TXCO .01ppm Vanguard clock, choke PS filter, etc...


http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project

Bob, you need to start a side business modding DAC 60's, I know I would order one!

 

[DeLuX]

Bob, you need to start a side business modding DAC 60's, I know I would order one!

+1

 

[rb2013]

@sheldaze Thanks for sharing, what a fantastic experience it must have been listening to Tyl's incredible setup!!!

The biggest difference in the Yggy and the Antelope is price depending on the version Tyl has. The entry level is priced similarly to the Yggy, but a fully loaded one is pushing $4k.

IMO, there are great Delta Sigma and R2R DACs out there, it's just that the price for sonic greatness is much higher for multi-bit. Especially when one considers the fantastic vintage R2R DACs available.

Well my other DAC is a Multi-Bit S-D - so I have and had many of this type.  What makes my APL NWO(jr) different is the use of 6 DACs per channel - the NWO uses 10 DACs per channel (which I had but traded for the jr+cash).  But both have the same E99CC tube output stages, and Lundahl transformer coupling.  Now the APLs use the 32-bit AKM DAC chip which is R2R for the first 6 bits then switches to S-D for the rest.  Alex the designer has implied to me that he only uses the 6 bit R2R of each DAC chip - but that can't be confirmed.  The NWO is $30,000, the NWOjr $6,500.  My modded DAC60 meets or exceeds the NWOjr - for a total investment of $1200.  It does some things like natural tone better then the NWO.  But yes with enough design genius and money - a Multi-Bit S-D can sound very good indeed!
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/aplhifi/nwo30go.html

 
 

   
What's the digital filter in the Monarchy NM24? Or is it NOS (non-oversampling)?

It's NOS - but unlike the 16bit TDA1641 - the PCM1704 is 24 bit R2R.  So even 24 bit recordings will not need upsampling.  This is part of why the sound of R2R's is so natural - no need for internal upsampling.  Now Monarchy sells the 'DIP' is you want to add hard upsampling.
 
I sometimes use SoX upsampler on 16/44 Wav files to upsample to 96k (with the DAC60) and 192k with the APL.  It can improve the sound sometimes.
S-D by their very design must use extreme measures to process multi-bit data.
 
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm

As a 16 bit R2R DAC is able to generate 65536 different static voltages, and a single switch can only generate 2 different voltages (hi and low), a high switching frequency (usually in the range of a couple of MegaHertz, and achieved through oversampling) is necessary for proper operation and thus, much noise will be produced by the switching process in a sigma-delta converter.
In fact, for any practical application, the noise-level is much higher than the signal that is to be reproduced.
Therefore, this inacceptable high noise-level is shaped into higher-frequencies, as it is believed that high-frequency noise is outside the human listening range and will not degrade sound quality.
As a side effect of this high-order noise-shaping even higher noise levels are generated, residing in the high-frequency region.
To our surprise, in the technical specification of those sigma-delta DACs very low noise-levels are mentioned, and by reading the data-sheets, one could have the illusion, that a decent sound quality would be attainable by such a device.
In fact, the total noise-output is never stated in the data-sheets, and measurements only mention in-band-noise up to 20kHz, suggesting that higher frequency noise has no effect on fidelity.
 

 
http://funwithaudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/today-in-electronics-everything-is-made.html

Today in electronics everything is made small, and as a consequence, compromises must be made to make everything fit in a small package, and run off one power rail. 

Delta Sigma DACs all have internal op-amps to provide a voltage output.

Op amps are not evil, however there are good sounding op-amps and average sounding ones. Good ones cost more than most delta sigma DAC chips themselves. One of the problems with most delta sigma designs, is that the on board op-amp is not of the best quality. There is no option to take the current output from the chip. Hence we are stuck with the voltage output and consequently, the "sound' of the op amp, that the manufacturer gives us.

The reason delta sigma was developed was to get the chip size smaller and reduce manufacturing costs. From what I can tell, it is not in any way shape or form to obtain better sound.

If the object was to obtain better sound then the manufacturers would improve laser trimming of the R2R ladder network, however this costs a lot of money, and the chips stay big! However the PCM1704 is an exception to this rule being a surface mount 24bit 96khz R2R chip.  

 

[evillamer]

   But yes with enough design genius and money - a Multi-Bit S-D can sound very good indeed!

 
Then why not just stick to true R2R in the first place? Why try to "reinventing the wheel"/Rely on design genius's guesswork with Sigma Delta?

 

[rb2013]

   
Then why not just stick to true R2R in the first place? Why try to "reinventing the wheel"/Rely on design genius's guesswork with Sigma Delta?

Well I had bought the NWO many years ago after hearing my friends - it was/is outstanding!  But at what cost?  $30K? Ridiculous - I traded for the Jr and $20K in cash to fund a business venture.
 
I was going to go for a Zanden at the time (TDA1541 Double Crown NOS) but choose a different path.  Here are a few R2Rs that I would like to hear:
 
TotalDAC D1-Tube-MK2 http://www.totaldac.com/D1-tube-eng.htm
La Scala MKII R2R - http://www.aquahifi.com/la_scala.html
 
The La Scala uses 4 PCM1704's and a tube output, the TotalDAC custom built Vishay resistor ladder.  Very nice!

 

[rb2013]

Bob, you need to start a side business modding DAC 60's, I know I would order one!

Wow the time it takes to do one it would not be cheap!  But thanks - I stay pretty busy at work.

 

[coli]

   
Then why not just stick to true R2R in the first place? Why try to "reinventing the wheel"/Rely on design genius's guesswork with Sigma Delta?

Because small time shop lack the expertise to design a DAC chip.
 
Edit: Now I think your question was rhetorical.

 

[evillamer]

 

   
Then why not just stick to true R2R in the first place? Why try to "reinventing the wheel"/Rely on design genius's guesswork with Sigma Delta?

Because small time shop lack the expertise to design a DAC chip.

 
Point debunked:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/739309/visit-to-the-schiit-box-schiit-factory-tour
 
http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

 

[coli]

   
Point debunked:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/739309/visit-to-the-schiit-box-schiit-factory-tour
 
http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

That's not a custom DAC chip, that's off the shelf. Worse, it's glitchy for audio applications as it's not designed for audio.

 

[evillamer]

 

   
Point debunked:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/739309/visit-to-the-schiit-box-schiit-factory-tour
 
http://schiit.com/products/yggdrasil

That's not a custom DAC chip, that's off the shelf. Worse, it's glitchy for audio applications as it's not designed for audio.

 
More example: 
 
Totaldac:  
 
A new company building is ready, 60m2 with no parallel wall, and 2.5m to 5m height

 
 
http://www.totaldac.com/

 

[miceblue]

I'm not into the Yggdrasil personally because of the "burn-in" time. Me and a few other local people have said it's a poor design choice to have to wait a freaking week for your DAC to sound good.

I'll wait for gen 2 for the time being.

 

[coli]

   
More example: 
 
Totaldac:  
 
A new company building is ready, 60m2 with no parallel wall, and 2.5m to 5m height

 
 
http://www.totaldac.com/

Yeah, Total DAC, Metrum, Soekris are the few that are the real deal and design their own DAC chip, everyone else just uses off the shelf DAC chip and their example boards. You might as well buy AV Receivers if the dac uses off the self parts.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

I'm not into the Yggdrasil personally because of the "burn-in" time. Me and a few other local people have said it's a poor design choice to have to wait a freaking week for your DAC to sound good.

I'll wait for gen 2 for the time being.

Why don't you pick up a Lite DAC 60 or a vintage R2R? I leave my Monarchy and Taurus Mk.2 on 24/7, think they sound better that way.

 

[miceblue]

I was actually thinking of getting a Soekris 01 whenever it comes back in stock. It would be a nice DIY opportunity for me and to learn a little more about its design.