[MazzStrikers]

Hi guys,

Just picked up a Theta DSPro Gen III for a really good price!! The price is just too good to resist not giving it a try. Decided to go the R2R route because the current crop of sigma delta DACs just don't cut it, especially those with the ESS Sabre silicon (Ahem)

R2R became my cup of tea when I chanced upon a Naim CD5X with dual mono PCM1704 configuration and sold my Mytek 192 DSD to fund it. The Naim is just spot on in tone.

The Theta is one league higher. It has the fantastic tone expected of R2R, and with bass texture, punch and solidity on an unprecedented level. The PCM1704 implementations I've heard, though spot on in tone, sounds very slightly vague in bass. I'm starting to suspect that the PCM63P-K may be the best DAC chip in existence, superior to the PCM1704 in pure sound quality alone, if not for the fact that the 1704 can handle a 24 bit stream.

My rig



Internal shots of the Theta. Just look at the quality of engineering.



The two PCM63P-K's from Burr Brown Japan

 

[stuartmc]

For me, an easy test is a complex horn sound. The French horn is particularly good at revealing the limits of a Sabre design, especially long sustained tones. Too often, a Sabre design will sound like it is trying to guess what a French horn sounds like while reconstituting the timbre - seemingly recalculating the timbre, subtly shifting and altering it as it plays, second-guessing itself. 

An R2R, properly designed, will sound fulsome and assured, and not like aural steak tartare, so to speak.

I sure wouldn't like that French horn vivisection you describe. I'm a big Empire Brass fan and their current French horn player, Victor Sungarian, is outstanding. For those of you who may not have heard, the founding member and principal trumpet player,Rolf Smedvig, died of a heart attack this past May at only 62. Very sad news for Brass fans. I just wanted to say that the issue you describe with Sabre designs has, in my experience, not been the case. I have used the Gustard X12 and now their dual Sabre X20 and to these ears, the French horn sound has been more than satisfactory. It may be a Gustard house sound. I have found their dacs to be glare free, with more weight and meat in the upper bass and midrange as compared to a few other notable delta/sigma dacs I tried.

 

[jusbe]

I sure wouldn't like that French horn vivisection you describe. I'm a big Empire Brass fan and their current French horn player, Victor Sungarian, is outstanding. For those of you who may not have heard, the founding member and principal trumpet player,Rolf Smedvig, died of a heart attack this past May at only 62. Very sad news for Brass fans. I just wanted to say that the issue you describe with Sabre designs has, in my experience, not been the case. I have used the Gustard X12 and now their dual Sabre X20 and to these ears, the French horn sound has been more than satisfactory. It may be a Gustard house sound. I have found their dacs to be glare free, with more weight and meat in the upper bass and midrange as compared to a few other notable delta/sigma dacs I tried.

Well, I'd be happy to hear that. One aspect of this R2R love-affair is, ahem, age. Great as it is to still have access to these shorts of DACs, unless manufacturers start mass-producing them again, availability will continue to dwindle. Then we'll be solely at the mercy of boutique designs (which may be no bad thing).
 
One design I haven't listened to much, aside from the odd audition at a dealer's or a show, is that AD1865 chip. Used a lot in Audio Note DACs, this is also a worthy contender. 

But I'd need a lot of convincing to get back onto a Sabre train.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

For me it is also all about tone, R2R designs, especially the PCM63K, do strings, brass, piano, etc., naturally. I haven't heard most of the current crop of high end Sabre implementations, hate that I will miss Preproman's stuff in Nashville. Though from the Yggy down, for the dollar, you are getting some of the best digital has to offer.

 

[MazzStrikers]

For me it is also all about tone, R2R designs, especially the PCM63K, do strings, brass, piano, etc., naturally. I haven't heard most of the current crop of high end Sabre implementations, hate that I will miss Preproman's stuff in Nashville. Though from the Yggy down, for the dollar, you are getting some of the best digital has to offer.

Absolutely!! Forget the Sabres I've given up on them after hearing the Mytek, Auralic and Resonessence stuff. Not sure why top designs these days still use the Sabre. Maybe because having 8 channels in a quad mono configuration measures very well but sound wise, meh...

Even among the SD designs the Wolfson WM8741/8740 (quite analogue) and the PCM1792/1794(pretty resolute and treble pretty airy) sound much better. I try not to generalise but there seems to be a pattern between DACs adopting the same silicon.

Keep the thread alive buddy, discovering good R2R DACs in light of the string of lacklustre SD designs have been a revelation for me and here's to hoping more headfiers can snap up the good old Theta, Wadia, Levinson, Naim, PS Audio (Ultralink), Resolution Audio (Quantum DAC/Caesium Transport/Opus 21 CDP) for good prices because some of the owners do not know the worth of these gems.

They really do deserve a good transport too, feed them with data from a Theta/Wadia/Levinson CD transport or a top quality USB to SPDIF and it becomes clear why red book is still the de-facto standard. Red book done well can question the need for PCM384kHz/DSD256 which the same guys promoting the most modern SD DACs are convincing us to believe is superior.

 

[Failed Engineer]

Good reference link:
 
http://vasiltech.narod.ru/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htm

 

[doctorjazz]

I've mentioned this earlier, but, hey, I repeat myself a lot. My Peachtree GrandPre use the Sabre 9018, for a great review from The Absolute Sound. Got a Mojo Mystique (pre-production, no case, tubes NOS/R2R dac), and it sounded WAY better than the Peachtree. Using the Peachtree, though, more convenient, and the Mojo and Peachtree didn't get along (or I screwed up somehow), and I wound up getting the preamp's circuits twice. Have to contact Mr Mojo (Ben) one of these, send it back and get it finished...you guys are pushing me in that direction, Damn you all!!!!!
Worth checking out if you want a currently produced R2R unit.

 

[Wildcatsare1]

I've mentioned this earlier, but, hey, I repeat myself a lot. My Peachtree GrandPre use the Sabre 9018, for a great review from The Absolute Sound. Got a Mojo Mystique (pre-production, no case, tubes NOS/R2R dac), and it sounded WAY better than the Peachtree. Using the Peachtree, though, more convenient, and the Mojo and Peachtree didn't get along (or I screwed up somehow), and I wound up getting the preamp's circuits twice. Have to contact Mr Mojo (Ben) one of these, send it back and get it finished...you guys are pushing me in that direction, Damn you all!!!!!
Worth checking out if you want a currently produced R2R unit.

Doc Jazz, you need to get the Mojo fired up, I am looking forward to seeing how it plays with your HEK!

 

[x RELIC x]

Just thought I'd jump in and say there's no doubt in my mind that I'll never purchase Delta-Sigma again for desktop. My recent DAC-19(10th Anv) purchase has been a clear and obvious upgrade to any other modern(past 20 years) DAC I've heard. For me now it's a matter of climbing the R-2R quality 'ladder' (pun intended), my poor wallet!

 

[gr8soundz]

Just thought I'd jump in and say there's no doubt in my mind that I'll never purchase Delta-Sigma again for desktop. My recent DAC-19(10th Anv) purchase has been a clear and obvious upgrade to any other modern(past 20 years) DAC I've heard. For me now it's a matter of climbing the R-2R quality 'ladder' (pun intended), my poor wallet!

 
DAC-19 must be pretty good after reading so many positives about it.
 
Still wanna go balanced though so I'm wondering how the Audio-gd Master 7 fares against the Yggdrasil? (both balanced and around the same price; wishful thinking for a future purchase).
 
Also, are there any R2R DACs that can do DSD?
 

 

[doctorjazz]

I've mentioned this earlier, but, hey, I repeat myself a lot. My Peachtree GrandPre use the Sabre 9018, for a great review from The Absolute Sound. Got a Mojo Mystique (pre-production, no case, tubes NOS/R2R dac), and it sounded WAY better than the Peachtree. Using the Peachtree, though, more convenient, and the Mojo and Peachtree didn't get along (or I screwed up somehow), and I wound up getting the preamp's circuits twice. Have to contact Mr Mojo (Ben) one of these, send it back and get it finished...you guys are pushing me in that direction, Damn you all!!!!!

Worth checking out if you want a currently produced R2R unit.

Doc Jazz, you need to get the Mojo fired up, I am looking forward to seeing how it plays with your HEK!

Gotta do it, so I can sing (get ready for it...), "Got my Mojo working!" HAHAHA!!!!!

 

[mscott58]

Good reference link:

http://vasiltech.narod.ru/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htm

Awesome reference information! Thanks for sharing.

So I guess I do own an R2R after all! I have a Resolution Audio Opus 21 from my 2-channel system that appears to use 4x PCM1704's.

Hmmmm....

 

[wnmnkh]

 

Just thought I'd jump in and say there's no doubt in my mind that I'll never purchase Delta-Sigma again for desktop. My recent DAC-19(10th Anv) purchase has been a clear and obvious upgrade to any other modern(past 20 years) DAC I've heard. For me now it's a matter of climbing the R-2R quality 'ladder' (pun intended), my poor wallet!

 
DAC-19 must be pretty good after reading so many positives about it.
 
Still wanna go balanced though so I'm wondering how the Audio-gd Master 7 fares against the Yggdrasil? (both balanced and around the same price; wishful thinking for a future purchase).
 
Also, are there any R2R DACs that can do DSD?
 

 
R2R DACs doing DSD is truly oxymoron. As Mike from Schiit said, they are basically antithesis of each other.
 
I suspect most (if not all) R2R DACs convert DSD into PCM to process it.

 

[x RELIC x]

DAC-19 must be pretty good after reading so many positives about it.

Still wanna go balanced though so I'm wondering how the Audio-gd Master 7 fares against the Yggdrasil? (both balanced and around the same price; wishful thinking for a future purchase).

Also, are there any R2R DACs that can do DSD?

 

No DSD. DSD and Delta-Sigma pretty much go hand in hand and R2R will not play a DSD signal unless converted to PCM first.

IMO, it's a compromise from a software and hardware side where audio fidelity, timbre, layers, and realism is concerned. Knowing now the history where DSD came from, and how it is decoded to an analogue signal, I'm convinced I'll never, EVER, seek out DSD for its phantom superiority. Knowledge is power.

There are gobs of info on the subject and the more I read - and listen - the more I'm convinced that R2R is the best way to go.

 

[vlach]

No DSD. DSD and Delta-Sigma pretty much go hand in hand and R2R will not play a DSD signal unless converted to PCM first.

IMO, it's a compromise from a software and hardware side where audio fidelity, timbre, layers, and realism is concerned. Knowing now the history where DSD came from, and how it is decoded to an analogue signal, I'm convinced I'll never, EVER, seek out DSD for its phantom superiority. Knowledge is power.

There are gobs of info on the subject and the more I read - and listen - the more I'm convinced that R2R is the best way to go.

+1

DSD was intended to be a storage format for Sony catalogues. Further, DSD has to be converted to PCM during the mastering process in order to balance, equalize, fade, etc. Then it is converted back to DSD, therefore no DSD recording/mastering process remains as DSD from beginning to end.
There is nothing DSD does better than 24/96 PCM.
Two words: marketing spin.

And...the vast majority of music available as DSD are hi rez 'transfers' (not hi rez 'recordings') from old analog tapes who's recording equipment was only capable of capturing 60-70dB of dynamic range which requires about 10-12 bits...well below Redbook CD.

You then enter the loudness war and compression which removes any of the fidelity that's left.