[dcolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TeraDak /img/forum/go_quote.gif If we are available ,we might consider experimenting with the exact settings for the I/V resistor (330R ~ 390R) a little more and seek the best compromise between dynamic range and clipping. ^-^

Where can we order the new version of DAC?

Is it sold by Vintage Audio Labs on Ebay?

 

[dcolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paara /img/forum/go_quote.gif hmmm.. That is not good news for me, since I am only using USB. I guess the quality of the USB signal can vary from PC to PC.

It really does.

On one of my notebooks, Dell Inspiron 1525, the sound skips from time to time, on another one Dell Vostro 1500, the sound has no problems.

It also can depend on installed USB Audio drivers. The CM 108 I tried does not work OK on one particular notebook, but it does work OK on a different computer.

If guess, if you do have problems with the USB sound, it's probably your PC having problems delivering 1 and 0's to the DAC.

 

[adriaan243]

Quote:

Originally Posted by erin /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hang on. PC settings have a lot do do with getting the most out of this DAC, Since it IS a USB DAC! I think its quite relevant. Also this seems to be the only forum on the internet to discus the Valab, so any information or suggestions seem relevant. Sorry you are bored. I find it interesting.....

The original idea behind this DAC came from Kusunoki
( kusunoki ), and is based on the use of a simple 16 bit multibit chip (TDA1543) instead of the modern highly complicated oversampling variety and to leave out the anti aliasing filter that is standard in all commercial CD players,DVD players and DAC's and is probably the cause of what many people consider the unmusical sound of CD.
My 2009 version with the 330 ohmresistor and a Black Gate output cap sounds extremely musical and for the first time in some cases more involving then vinyl.
PC users have a problem: The non-professional software and drivers they are using will introduce problems that SPDIF users don't have.
A CD player will output 16 bit 44.1khz without any change through SPDIF to the TDA1543.
A computer will probably output 24bit words that should be properly redithered 16bits ,( Dither - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) this is normal in professional software and if you don't do it the 8 extra bits will be truncated and will cause some distortion.
In somecases the driver will resample the 44.1khz words and output lower quality 48khz words.
For quality PC reproduction it is necessary to use reputable software, the TDA1543 only works properly on straight 16 bit words.

 

[dcolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adriaan243 /img/forum/go_quote.gif The original idea behind this DAC came from Kusunoki ( kusunoki ), and is based on the use of a simple 16 bit multibit chip (TDA1543) instead of the modern highly complicated oversampling variety and to leave out the anti aliasing filter that is standard in all commercial CD players,DVD players and DAC's and is probably the cause of what many people consider the unmusical sound of CD. My 2009 version with the 330 ohmresistor and a Black Gate output cap sounds extremely musical and for the first time in some cases more involving then vinyl. PC users have a problem: The non-professional software and drivers they are using will introduce problems that SPDIF users don't have. A CD player will output 16 bit 44.1khz without any change through SPDIF to the TDA1543. A computer will probably output 24bit words that should be properly redithered 16bits ,( Dither - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) this is normal in professional software and if you don't do it the 8 extra bits will be truncated and will cause some distortion. In somecases the driver will resample the 44.1khz words and output lower quality 48khz words. For quality PC reproduction it is necessary to use reputable software, the TDA1543 only works properly on straight 16 bit words.

It's really not that hard to have computer output 44Khz/16bit over its S/PDIF or USB.

Foobar is one of the programs that offers all one needs to do that, with the plethora of output options (DirectSound, ASIO, KS, WASAPI).

What' more, you can always use PC's S/PDIF output instead of USB if there are problems with DAC/USB driver combination.

 

[jrosenth]

I have the older 2008 version of this dac - have been listening to it for a while out of usb and a cd player

On the whole it is a great dac especially for the money

Comparing it head to head with an NOS dac that reclocks optical and SPDIF like my Shek, I actually prefer the Shek

Taking nothing away from the Valab, the Shek sounds a bit more thick, organic and vibrant, kind of more NOS-ier compared to the Valab

That's held up across amps tubes/solid state Woo amp vs Starving student - it's very subtle but it's there

Again for a Dac under $300 (SHek's price on ebay including shipping) the Valab is fantastic and the Shek doesn't do USB although the Moodlab, a dac receiving very similar reviews to the Shek, does but comes in at $400 shipped via ebay

I've actually ordered on of the cheap little NOS dacs from ebay (bout $60) and a usb converter and will be very interested to try it head to head with the Valab

 

[Historicus]

Definitively I never had problems with distortions with my Valab DAC.
I use it only through my hi-end gear (a Sony SCD-777ES mechanics, Vintage Audio digital interconnect, AudioNote M3 Phone tube preamplifier , vintage Audio Magic Box interconnects that isolate in a galvanic way the gears, two 100 Watt in A-class solid state monaural amplifiers , and the legendary B&W 801 Matrix III loudspeakers, a dedicated power line through a big isolation transformer).
I listened some classical CDs that have high output as some Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo, that are known as one of the best recordings in hi-fi history. The same recordings as LPs on my analogue chain (Garrard 401, Denon 103 PRO, Auditorium 23 Step-up an Ortofon AS-309S 13 inch tonearm, Yamamoto Ebony headshell) still sound better then cds but this doesn't depend on Valab DAC.
I suppose that some problems could arise through the USB computer exit. The 12.0000Mhz TCXO clock of this DAC works only combined with the computer exit.
The analouge exit is without any output buffer that could improve DAC's quality if it is well constructed. I don't suggest to change the original resistor because with the 330 resistor because I thing that the output level would be too low in this case.

 

[adriaan243]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcolak /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's really not that hard to have computer output 44Khz/16bit over its S/PDIF or USB. Foobar is one of the programs that offers all one needs to do that, with the plethora of output options (DirectSound, ASIO, KS, WASAPI). What' more, you can always use PC's S/PDIF output instead of USB if there are problems with DAC/USB driver combination.

You just don't seem to understand what I am saying.
It is completely unclear what your drivers and software and Windows are doing with your beautiful music, you trust your computer too much, only when you are sure everything is working the way it should, not resampled, properly dithered, you can be sure the sound will be OK.
The programs you mention just cannot be trusted

 

[dcolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by adriaan243 /img/forum/go_quote.gif You just don't seem to understand what I am saying. It is completely unclear what your drivers and software and Windows are doing with your beautiful music, you trust your computer too much, only when you are sure everything is working the way it should, not resampled, properly dithered, you can be sure the sound will be OK. The programs you mention just cannot be trusted

When the output is bit-perfect, what else is there to be sure about?

I'm an IT professional, but regardless to that, I KNOW what Windows are doing to my music - exactly nothing

Computers are not some kind of magic, it's really easy to know what's going on. That's why we could diagnose the problem with clipping so fast using a PC as a source.

 

[dcolak]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Historicus /img/forum/go_quote.gif Definitively I never had problems with distortions with my Valab DAC. I use it only through my hi-end gear (a Sony SCD-777ES mechanics, Vintage Audio digital interconnect, AudioNote M3 Phone tube preamplifier , vintage Audio Magic Box interconnects that isolate in a galvanic way the gears, two 100 Watt in A-class solid state monaural amplifiers , and the legendary B&W 801 Matrix III loudspeakers, a dedicated power line through a big isolation transformer). I listened some classical CDs that have high output as some Mercury Living Presence or RCA Living Stereo, that are known as one of the best recordings in hi-fi history. The same recordings as LPs on my analogue chain (Garrard 401, Denon 103 PRO, Auditorium 23 Step-up an Ortofon AS-309S 13 inch tonearm, Yamamoto Ebony headshell) still sound better then cds but this doesn't depend on Valab DAC. I suppose that some problems could arise through the USB computer exit. The 12.0000Mhz TCXO clock of this DAC works only combined with the computer exit. The analouge exit is without any output buffer that could improve DAC's quality if it is well constructed. I don't suggest to change the original resistor because with the 330 resistor because I thing that the output level would be too low in this case.

USB or S/PDIF, it was the same with this DAC. You can find out in previous posts how to generate a test tone (40Hz) and output it to the DAC over USB OR S/PDIF - the results will be the same.

Anyway, it is ALREADY FIXED, so there is no need to continue that thread

Anyone buying a new Valab DAC will NOT have problems with clipping.

 

[PatOMalley]

Jitter was mentioned early on as a negative contributor.
The magnetic field inside the computer is like ground zero.
The vibration of the board and chassis is to be taken into consideration.
The undamped everything in the box contributes to error.
Poor memory allocation scheme in *.* Windows is to be taken into account.
Thread cycling and the 'unknown' on how much cycle time your threads get and how/if/when they are interrupted as the operating system is 'interrupt driven'.

Ever notice what happens when you bring down updates?; How things slow down a bit? Or when the virus scanner takes notice of things?

What gets the big haw haw is the "I know what Windows is doing with my ..."
Using Windows is a piss poor music delivery system. There, I said it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcolak /img/forum/go_quote.gif When the output is bit-perfect, what else is there to be sure about? I'm an IT professional, but regardless to that, I KNOW what Windows are doing to my music - exactly nothing Computers are not some kind of magic, it's really easy to know what's going on. That's why we could diagnose the problem with clipping so fast using a PC as a source.

 

[dcolak]

What errors are you talking about? Moving, hitting a computer box will somehow ruin bit-perfect output of the music?

Should I get my Squeezebox and start moving it around it will start to produce bad music?

VIBRATION! 1+1=5!

Doing alloc() or new byte[] and later reading the bytes... is somehow wrong for the music, because some of it might get... what... corrupted by hitting the computer box?

If it was as you just said, NO computer system would be able to run any meaningful application and no mathematic calculus would ever be correct on any computer.

Imagine, A MAGNETIC FIELD INSIDE A COMPUTER! WOW! How can possibly that 3Ghz CPU work at all, with all those BAD MAGNETIC FIELDS inside the computer box! All those memory chips, they must be burning from inside, being in the GROUND ZERO of MAGNETIC FIELDS! All those 1's and 0's must be corrupt!

Oh, come on!

You know, there are CPU's and memory chips in the CD players and amplifiers too. They are mini computers as well. So, what are we going to do with them?

I happen to be a writer of the USB kernel drivers, and yes, if your computer is crap that is stuttering every time you touch the mouse you'll probably have interruptions in the USB output. But, those computers are long left in the past, I hope.

I wonder, how do computers in our cellular phones work at all, with all that moving, MAGNETIC FIELDS and the radiation of all sorts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatOMalley /img/forum/go_quote.gif Jitter was mentioned early on as a negative contributor. The magnetic field inside the computer is like ground zero. The vibration of the board and chassis is to be taken into consideration. The undamped everything in the box contributes to error. Poor memory allocation scheme in *.* Windows is to be taken into account. Thread cycling and the 'unknown' on how much cycle time your threads get and how/if/when they are interrupted as the operating system is 'interrupt driven'. Ever notice what happens when you bring down updates?; How things slow down a bit? Or when the virus scanner takes notice of things? What gets the big haw haw is the "I know what Windows is doing with my ..." Using Windows is a piss poor music delivery system. There, I said it.

 

[PatOMalley]

From that I take it that shielding is useless. Ferrite cores are a waste of time. Damping is a foole's game. Cable considerations are afterthoughts.
Just re-clock and all will be well. So be it.


"You know, there are CPU's and memory chips in the CD players and amplifiers too. They are mini computers as well. So, what are we going to do with them?"

Put some EMI paper and blu tac on them.

"I happen to be a writer of the USB kernel drivers, and yes, if your computer is crap that is stuttering every time you touch the mouse you'll probably have interruptions in the USB output. But, those computers are long left in the past, I hope."

Not so.

"I wonder, how do computers in our cellular phones work at all, with all that moving, MAGNETIC FIELDS and the radiation of all sorts."

Lost connections happen all the time. I have a telephone made in the 50's. A big honking thing that sounds far far better than any wireless piece of junk you can buy today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcolak /img/forum/go_quote.gif What errors are you talking about? Moving, hitting a computer box will somehow ruin bit-perfect output of the music? Should I get my Squeezebox and start moving it around it will start to produce bad music? VIBRATION! 1+1=5! Doing alloc() or new byte[] and later reading the bytes... is somehow wrong for the music, because some of it might get... what... corrupted by hitting the computer box? If it was as you just said, NO computer system would be able to run any meaningful application and no mathematic calculus would ever be correct on any computer. Imagine, A MAGNETIC FIELD INSIDE A COMPUTER! WOW! How can possibly that 3Ghz CPU work at all, with all those BAD MAGNETIC FIELDS inside the computer box! All those memory chips, they must be burning from inside, being in the GROUND ZERO of MAGNETIC FIELDS! All those 1's and 0's must be corrupt! Oh, come on! You know, there are CPU's and memory chips in the CD players and amplifiers too. They are mini computers as well. So, what are we going to do with them? I happen to be a writer of the USB kernel drivers, and yes, if your computer is crap that is stuttering every time you touch the mouse you'll probably have interruptions in the USB output. But, those computers are long left in the past, I hope. I wonder, how do computers in our cellular phones work at all, with all that moving, MAGNETIC FIELDS and the radiation of all sorts.

 

[MikeW]

I don't understand all the computer hate going on here. Valab's clipping problems are exactly that. VALAB's clipping problem. And have absolutely nothing to do with the transport. Like I said before, the only difference here is a PC's flexability allows us to play test tones, and do diagnostics, that are no possible, or require more effort out of a standard CD player. Foobar is a recognized, high quality piece of software, I have no doubt whatsoever that im outputting a 44.1/16bit signal to the dac. I've been using Foobar for years and know it quite well.

Edit: also like to add, that I don't run my music at -3 DB, I found that despite it's possible, occasional clipping, it sounds better at 0 DB.

 

[SaschaMkl]

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[julius_the_cat]

Facts:
Some Valab DACs produce measurable and audible clipping with PC input.
Some of us really like the DAC and either don't hear or tolerate the clipping.
Some of us have not received responses to email/Ebay inquires.
A few very positive posters on this thread have posted ONLY on this thread.

Opinions:
This DAC has front of the house sound which I like. The sound is similar to my TADAC which is also NOS but based on the 1793. I don't hear similar clipping on another 1543 based DAC - the Peter Daniels designed Audiosector. I don't hear a difference when PC input is forced to 16 bit.

Distortion from clipping is OK with an electric guitar. Audible breakup from clipping in vocals is not OK. I don't like it when the singer sounds like he ought to clear his throat. The clipping that occurs with my DAC mars what is otherwise a nice product.

Bye for now. Caveat emptor.