[rb2013]

Thanks Rob! So basically "only" model USB2G4LEXT2 would be good here from the StarTech ones like this:

https://www.ballicom.co.uk/usb2g4lext2-startech-com-4-port-usb-2-0-over-lan-.p1009343.html

Is it also neccessary to put one USB storage into all 4 ports?

It would be better if they had a more complete description. But I believe that is the correct one.


I don't think you need to use all USB ports.

 

[rb2013]

Going Asic is a massive investment. Requires a big volume of sales to make it worth it.

I can't imagine that ICRON would have a demand for this version for more then a few thousand units, even with the OEMing for Startech. And at a price point of only a few hundred dollars wholesale, not much of a margin to recoup that big of an investment.

Now for a major DAC company like Chord, that's different. I'm sure they sell many more units, at prices in the thousands. Seems to me if ASIC had inherent sonic advantages they would be the first to exploit them.

 

[rb2013]

My Startech does not have the FPGA. I'm very impressed with the SQ improvement with just the SMPS that it came with. I'll get a Meiyan at some point.

If anything I would expect the ASIC to sound better because it will do less processing to achieve the same result, so it would probably dump less noise back into the power supply.

Looking more closely at the two boards, I noticed that the ASIC version uses two crystal clocks on the REX board, versus only one on the FPGA board.

I wonder why? Are they doing some clocking in the FPGA?

 

[somestranger26]

  Nice!  I hope you are right - maybe some one will send me their ASIC version for comparison. Good feedback - of course the SQ will improve with 100-200 hrs run time.
 
Now the ASIC is cheaper to make and has a lower price.  I would note that Chord uses the Xilinx SPARTAN 6 FPGA in their widley acclaimed totl DACs like the DAVE and Hugo TT.  If a ASIC could sound better and be cheaper to produce - I imagine they would be using one.

 
As @Clemmaster said, ASIC is a very large up front investment. Likely $500,000+ to get the first set of chips back from the foundry. It also requires people who know how to design the circuitry, versus "just" FPGA programmers.
 
There's also the issue of prototyping cost - if you're working on something very subjective like digital audio filters then you're going to want to keep changing the implementation to see if certain changes make improvements to the sound. This would be very, very expensive with ASICs since you'd have to go back to the foundry with your new design, then wait weeks for them to tool up and give you some sample chips. FPGAs are nearly purpose-built for fast prototyping since they're programmable.
 
That is not to mention the upgradeability of FPGA audio solutions. PS Audio does this with their DirectStream DAC which uses some $$$ FPGA for the digital filters and DAC chip itself (I don't think it's the SPARTAN though) and they provide regular firmware updates that most listeners think improve the SQ of the DAC. These types of updates wouldn't be possible with an ASIC, and it's tough to get it right enough the first time to warrant an ASIC. Audio-GD actually released a new DAC called "Singularity-7" which uses the same concept for the programmable digital filters, although it still uses traditional PCM1704UK DAC chips behind the FPGA.
 
I know Chord doesn't release the same type of firmware updates (maybe they managed to get it right the first time?), but the cost of making actual chips instead of just taking some off the shelf and programming them is likely prohibitive regardless of their size. High end audio is a pretty niche market and I doubt they're selling *thousands* of DAVEs. Plus, if the FPGA is good enough to be on top then it might not be worth it to invest in an ASIC. With the right power supply and everything the difference is probably small if any.
 
I feel you might underestimate the quantity of these devices that Icron/Startech are selling given the huge numbers of distributors selling them and there are quite possibly some large enterprise customers who buy them in large quantities for certain purposes, similar to the Intona isolator's industrial niche. They probably went with FPGA because it's cheaper and they could continually iterate the firmware to the point where it's good enough to convert to ASIC, and then saw enough sales to warrant the investment relative to long-term cost savings.

 

[rb2013]

 

Good points - but just to mention that Chord uses the SPARTAN 6 FPGA across their entire line of DAC's - the Hugo, 2QUTE, Hugo TT - only the portable Mojo does not.  So it's just not their totl DAVE - but at roughly $10,000 per DAVE - even a hundred would equal the revenue from thousands of of this model Startech.
 
The other point is that ICRON make a vast array of these USB extenders - most not as sophisticated as this version.  So they may sell a lot of USB extenders - I wonder how many of their totl ones?  At a wholesale price of $250 that would have to be a lot to recover the $500,000 up front cost of the ASIC.  Not to mention your points on design improvements, upgrades, etc...
 
I will note that on the PS Audio site regarding the ICRON OEM'd (we think) ASIC LanRover - there have been some comments on compatibility issues. 
 
I really hope the ASIC is better!  That would just take this amazing SQ to another height.  The of a separate crystal clock next to the ASIC design shows that the ASIC is not entirely a 'clone' of the SPARTAN FPGA.  If the SPARTAN is used for certain clocking functions - my thinking is the ASIC design may actually be better.  I'd bet a dedicated crystal clock would have lower jitter then a FGPA implemented clocking arrangement.
 
Cheers!

 

[rb2013]

 

Good points - but just to mention that Chord uses the SPARTAN 6 FPGA across their entire line of DAC's - the Hugo, 2QUTE, Hugo TT - only the portable Mojo does not.  So it's just not their totl DAVE - but at roughly $10,000 per DAVE - even a hundred would equal the revenue from thousands of this model Startech.
 
The other point is that ICRON makes a vast array of these USB extenders - most not as sophisticated as this version.  So they may sell a lot of USB extenders - I wonder how many of their totl ones?  At a wholesale price of $250 that would have to be a lot to recover the $500,000 up front cost of the ASIC.  Not to mention your points on design improvements, upgrades, etc...
 
I will note that on the PS Audio site regarding the ICRON OEM'd (we think) ASIC LanRover - there have been some comments on compatibility issues. 
 
I really hope the ASIC is better!  That would just take this amazing SQ to another height.  The use of a separate crystal clock next to the ASIC design shows that the ASIC is not entirely a 'clone' of the SPARTAN FPGA.  If the SPARTAN is used for certain clocking functions - my thinking is the ASIC design may actually be better.  I'd bet a dedicated crystal clock would have lower jitter then a FGPA implemented clocking arrangement.
 
Cheers!

 

[rb2013]

As I mentioned the PS Audio LanRover uses the ASIC version of the ICRON/Startech (I believe) in a one port configuration - it sells for $600
 
Here is an interesting review of the LanRover:
https://audiobacon.net/2016/12/01/ps-audio-lanrover-review-vs-microrendu-uptone-ultracap-lps-1/
 

It seems like these USB conditioners are quite prevalent in the audio space now. I’ve recently reviewed quite a few of them including the Uptone Regen, Wyred 4 Sound Recovery, Audioquest Jitterbug, and iFi nano iUSB3.0. I didn’t expect to have the LANRover as part of that review but figured it was a worthwhile experiment. Turns out, even as a desktop USB conditioner with the sender attached directly to the receiver, it absolutely blew away the rest of the cast. For that reason I wanted to dedicate an entire review for this wonderful device. 

Interesting Findings:​

1. The stock Monoprice Ethernet cable didn’t cut it. The LANRover actually sounded very flat and dull without a better Ethernet cable between the sender and receiver. It’s a night & day difference in dynamics, clarity, imaging, bass response, and engagement. For this reason, I stuck with the SOtM dCBL-CAT6 cable for this review.
2. Wireless setup: When plugging the sender into the WD My Net AC Wi-Fi bridge and MSI laptop and having the receiver plugged into another wireless ASUS EA-66 bridge and the Chord DAVE, the bass response was a bit bloated and the soundstage was collapsed. Still a very smooth sound but muddy and flat. Basically loses all musicality and energy.
   1. However, when the sender & receiver are directly attached to each other via a SOtM Ethernet cable, the bass tightens and the sound is much more open. It’s a huge sonic difference and I would expect these results if the network environment were optimal. For that reason I’ve kept it in this configuration for my tests.

​

 

vs. Sonore microRendu & Uptone UltraCap LPS-1

  Snowflake – Lara Ruggles (From Out of an Eggshell) – PS Audio Sonoma Master Series – One (DSD64)

1. PSA has an amazingly analog sound. I can’t stress how amazing smooth it sounds. A very natural, cohesive sound.
2. mR has a bit more grain on the vocals. Bass response is much better. Much better layering. Much more engaging sound.
3. I gotta say I like the smoothness of Lara’s voice on the PSA.
4. mR much cleaner sound, blacker background. You hear more detail and just more of the music with the mR. I honestly think the vocals sound better on the PSA.
5. Doesn’t mean the PSA is bad…just a different sound I think some would appreciate more than the mR. The mR definitely has a more alertness in its presentation.

Santo Domingo – Rodrigo y Gabriela – 11:11 (Bonus DVD) (48/16)

1. mR: An amazing treat. The way Gabriela knocks the guitar…too sexy. I love these guys. At 3:00 you could hear her knock while Rodrigo taps his feet (I think it’s his feet, I don’t have the DVD lol).
2. PSA: Quite an elegant sound. No grain, just very natural sounding.
3. mR has more vibrancy and sparkle in the guitar plucks and knocks and PSA is just more analog sounding (not sure how else to put it). PSA is also a tiny bit more forward. PSA has this really organic sound. Admittedly the smoothness is growing on me. It’s calm and relaxed without losing its musicality. I could imagine this sounding superb on a 2-channel setup.
4. mR better delineation and layering but loses a bit of cohesion versus PSA.

 

Conclusions

As mentioned in my review of the other USB conditioners, the PS Audio LANRover demolished the entire cast in the shootout. It wasn’t even close. Check out the raw notes in that review and you’ll get an idea of how amazing this device sounds. Now juxtaposing it with the microRendu and we have a fairer fight. Keep in mind the microRendu with LPS-1 combo does cost nearly double the LANRover at $1,035 vs the $599 of the LANRover. From my testing, the Ethernet cable used affected the sound enormously. I strongly suggest getting a SOtM CAT6 cable.
I did mention the significant improvement of sound when connecting the receiver and sender directly together. Obviously this will limit the distance but it could also be the cheapo Ethernet cable in the chain when used in the stated wireless configuration. The sound is still great but the loss in dynamics is noticeable. My guess is if that Ethernet cable is swapped out, all the dynamics will return as the cheap Ethernet cables tend to squash the soundstage and dampen the dynamics quite a bit.
When I first heard the LANRover my initial thought was “analog.” I didn’t hear any digital artifacts or obvious flaws in its presentation. It was very musical, very natural, and stupidly smooth. A side-by-side comparison to the microRendu and you start to hear some of the sonic differences. The mR has a more involved and engaging sound, pulling you into the action. It has a darker background, better separation/layering, more expansive soundstage, and just more vibrant. There is a bit more “grain” and a tiny bit of edgeness in the mids but overall a very fun and dynamic presentation.
The PSA LANRover is more laid back and relaxed. I’m just taken aback at how convincing performers sound and how the music just flows. Goosebump-inducing is an understatement. To be honest, this could be a matter of preference as I know some listeners prefer this analog sound over the more forward and energetic sound of the microRendu. Both the mR and PSA have a natural tonality and timbre and sound fantastic. Needless to say, the PS Audio LANRover blew me away, especially at this price-point.

Now to make for a more interesting comparison.  Take the LanRover and power the Sender with the LPS-1 and power the Receiver with another high quality LPS. 
 
Better yet get the Startech (or ICRON) version and run some high capacity USB sticks for storage (even better a SLC microSD in a USB adpater) plugged in the Startech...better yet use an external DDC like the F-1 to feed the DAVE by SPDIF coax - run the Recovery>iPur2>F-1 following the Startech or PSA - bet it simply blows the mR away.

 

[colour97]

tried to install windows and fail again. then at this moment i will only use it for music storage until anyone can successfully install o/s.
 
my fanless pc is 12v 5a, do you have any cheap suggestion for LPS, TERADAK don't provide noise figure, 
 
burning in for nearly 100 hrs, startech sound is positive changing.“Agree the sonic is "analog.” don't feel any digital .
 
last night got a day off, and listening for 5 hours music. paired or not paired startech with spring, this is 2 different dac.
it brings spring to another league.

 

[Superdad]

  Now to make for a more interesting comparison.  Take the LanRover and power the Sender with the LPS-1 and power the Receiver with another high quality LPS. 
 

 
Hi Rob:
 
Thanks, but you have that backwards.  Powering the downstream (REX) DAC-connected end of the LAN Rover with the UtlraCap LPS-1 is what people are doing--with fabulous results.  The PS at the "Sender" (LEX) end does not matter very much.
 
And on the ASIC versus FPGA thing: ICRON made the investment because they are now using that ASIC--with their ExtremeUSB protocol engine and other feature-ladden code--in virtually their entire line.  And if a company is big enough (or persuasive enough about true value-add) ICRON might even consider selling/licensing their ASIC to others.  But that is not happening quite yet.
But there is zero reason for their to be any SQ difference between the FPGA and the ASIC units--unless they changed other things on the board.  It could certainly use a better clock! 

 
 
 
P.S. Oh dear, I am sure someone is going to construe the above as either self promotion and/or criticizing another manufacturer's product.  I'm likely to get banned for sharing facts and knowledge.  You know, every time the mods send me a warning, they also invite me to become a paying sponsor here at Head-Fi.  Trouble is, I have sent over a half dozen messages, over as many months--to the advertising guy, to Jude, Joe, Currawong, etc.--asking for information, costs, etc. regarding sponsorships and advertising.  Have not received one single reply.  Maybe they will see this here.  Funny place...

 

[Adosero]

Lanrover's Rex requires 5v power while Startech/Icron Rex requires 24v, is that correct?

 

[wakka992]

  Lanrover's Rex requires 5v power while Startech/Icron Rex requires 24v, is that correct?

Correct. I'd much prefer the LANRover/Icron with one usb port as I'm afraid you won't find cheap 24v LPS out there ... You'd loose the possibility of using usb pen or microsd to store music, so one must decide... decision decision 

 

[robi20064]

Anyone had any experience with the fiber based Icron models?
 
https://www.icronshop.com/icron-brand/icron-ranger-2244
 
Interestingly both the LEX/REX require only 5v, still the price is about double versus the standard gigabit ones.

 

[rb2013]

   
Hi Rob:
 
Thanks, but you have that backwards.  Powering the downstream (REX) DAC-connected end of the LAN Rover with the UtlraCap LPS-1 is what people are doing--with fabulous results.  The PS at the "Sender" (LEX) end does not matter very much.
 
And on the ASIC versus FPGA thing: ICRON made the investment because they are now using that ASIC--with their ExtremeUSB protocol engine and other feature-ladden code--in virtually their entire line.  And if a company is big enough (or persuasive enough about true value-add) ICRON might even consider selling/licensing their ASIC to others.  But that is not happening quite yet.
But there is zero reason for their to be any SQ difference between the FPGA and the ASIC units--unless they changed other things on the board.  It could certainly use a better clock! 

 
 
 
P.S. Oh dear, I am sure someone is going to construe the above as either self promotion and/or criticizing another manufacturer's product.  I'm likely to get banned for sharing facts and knowledge.  You know, every time the mods send me a warning, they also invite me to become a paying sponsor here at Head-Fi.  Trouble is, I have sent over a half dozen messages, over as many months--to the advertising guy, to Jude, Joe, Currawong, etc.--asking for information, costs, etc. regarding sponsorships and advertising.  Have not received one single reply.  Maybe they will see this here.  Funny place...

Hey Alex,

Good to hear from you - I always appreciate your knowledgeable input - and as you know don't always agree with you!  But I learn from our debates.
 
On the LanRover what is the voltage?  Since it only has one USB port it's likely much less then the 24VDC of the Startech/ICRON four port version.  It sounds like the LPS-1 has enough current to power it.
 
Any thoughts as to why the ASIC has an extra clock crystal vs the FPGA? 
 
BTW if anyone has a board photo of the REX end of the LanRover would love to see that.
 
Good luck on the Sponsorship

 

[rb2013]

  Lanrover's Rex requires 5v power while Startech/Icron Rex requires 24v, is that correct?

Ditto that question.  I assume it would be more then 5VDC to allow for the powering of the ASIC circuit and the +5VDC USB.
 

  Correct. I'd much prefer the LANRover/Icron with one usb port as I'm afraid you won't find cheap 24v LPS out there ... You'd loose the possibility of using usb pen or microsd to store music, so one must decide... decision decision 

Really?  More expensive and you lose the ability for running external SLC card or high capacity USB sticks for music storage.  There are one or two very good, low cost LPS's that can easily do 24VDC at high current.
 
Seems like a no brainer

 

[rb2013]

  Anyone had any experience with the fiber based Icron models?
 
https://www.icronshop.com/icron-brand/icron-ranger-2244
 
Interestingly both the LEX/REX require only 5v, still the price is about double versus the standard gigabit ones.

No but did try using a FMC  SMF boxes in between the LEX and REX.  Degraded the SQ until I powered each with their own LPS's.  Then the SQ was just about the same.  So I sold them.  No reason the much more expensive fiber ICRON's would be better - and very likely worse.
 
If someone wanted to run long fiber between the LEX and REX - as fiber cables are easier to hide - it can be done fairly cheaply