[zenheadfi]

How does USB-C change the DAC scene going forward over the next 5 to 10 years? Is the connection better from a USB audio POV? Right now there's adapters that convert USB Type-C to USB Standard-A, but what about the connection without adapters? Do you think any DAC manufacturers would provide upgrade programs? Could a USB-C cable deliver enough power from a PC to power a Modi perhaps? If so, would that even be desirable?

 

[ProfFalkin]

  How does USB-C change the DAC scene going forward over the next 5 to 10 years? Is the connection better from a USB audio POV? Right now there's adapters that convert USB Type-C to USB Standard-A, but what about the connection without adapters? Do you think any DAC manufacturers would provide upgrade programs? Could a USB-C cable deliver enough power from a PC to power a Modi perhaps? If so, would that even be desirable?

 
Type C is much better.   With that said, keep in mind there is USB 2.0 Type C connections and USB 3.1 Type C connections.  The bandwidth of the latter can easily handle all of the DSD formats.  The 2.0 connections are limited to 2.0 specifications.
 
Connecting Type C devices without a type A or B adapter getting in the way is actually preferable.  USB 3.1 Type C to Type C connections enable 2 way power distribution, the USB 3.1 high speed connections, and configurable pin-outs (aka - Alternate Mode) for specific connection types - Display Port connections for example.
 
Yes, it can deliver enough power to power a Modi 2.  Heck, it could power a Gumby.  Max output of Type-C is 20w.  If using the USB-PD specifications, a Type-C source can power up to 100w... which is about 3 times more than the YGGDRASIL consumes.
 
Think of Type-C as a USB 2.0 connector and USB 3.0 connector rolled into a single reversible cable (only smarter, and with much better power delivery capabilities).  It has dedicated USB 2.0 pins, which it solely uses for legacy connections.
 
So... how does it change the DAC scene going forward?   It completely rewrites the rule book.  Whole new game.  With that said, the audio industry barely uses type-A/B USB 3.0 connections.   They have needed to catch up for quite a while already.

 

[zenheadfi]

Thanks for the informative reply (with numbers even)!
 
It'd be pretty nice to get rid of the wall wart for the Modi. It's a bit of an eyesore, but understandable for now given the units dimensions. Hell, daisy chaining to the Magni to provide power even seems like possibility.
 
Looking forward to USB-C taking over here. Standard connectivity is one of those things that's really appreciated as a consumer.

 

[Girardian]

I have a new MBP with no optical out.
 
What's the optimal USB-C to Gumy connection?  

 

[europeseko]

Dear friends
BLUEDIO has produced a headphone with usb type-c output. But on the other edge of the cable is 3.5 mm jack. Do you think it is worth to buy it? Do we need DAC for that?
Model is T4. You can find it in aliexpress. I need your recommendations.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Right now there's adapters that convert USB Type-C to USB Standard-A, but what about the connection without adapters?

 
You mean like a cable that goes from USB-C to USB-B?
http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F2CU035/

 

[Brahmsian]

I thought there would have been more interest in this topic. I'm looking at buying one of the new MacBook Pros and it looks like I'll have to use an adapter to use my DragonFly Red? Shouldn't there be some big push toward getting the audio industry to adopt USB-C? If that's where it's going, then the faster the better if you ask me.

 

[Psalmanazar]

USB-C and USB 3.0 won't matter as they won't decrease the latency. The USB 2.0 bit-rate is already high enough for multiple i/o channels of audio. More power won't really matter either as better thought out devices are mains powered from the wall or have the option of mains power like the Steinberg and Grace units, which tend to work better than say the cheapo Focusrites and random dongles that are solely USB bus powered. Basically you're not going to see USB 3.0 or C grade only DACs/interfaces as it has no real benefit and only cuts off potential customers.

What is very promising though is Thunderbolt due to the lowest latency since Firewire and having it's own bus. Too bad it's expensive to implement and only higher end pro gear from Apogee, Lynx, RME, and Focusrite (cheapest is Focusrite Claret 2 at around $500ish) have it. It could become the new Firewire if Apple doesn't drop it as higher end business grade and multimedia laptops are including it.

 

[Brahmsian]

I was reading something about USB-C making it possible to turn regular headphones into noise cancelling ones and things like that. But my point is more practical. If MacBooks only have USB-C ports, then I'd like to see DACs, amps, and headphones tailor made for it.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I was reading something about USB-C making it possible to turn regular headphones into noise cancelling ones and things like that. But my point is more practical. If MacBooks only have USB-C ports, then I'd like to see DACs, amps, and headphones tailor made for it.

Technically, any device with a mic audio input and analogue audio output with enough processing power can do that. Android phones already do that when you're having a phone conversation. The problem is that there are too many difficulties in practice.

For one, compared to using that on any IEM or headphone on any phone, the mic picking up noise patterns isn't anywhere near the headphone, unless you walk around with your arm up to have the phone near the headphone or IEM, thus picking up what noise is around your headphone or IEM rather than whatever noise signal it can get veiled by your pants pocket. They can implement this feature on calls because you have your phone right up against your head, or the headset has a mic. At minimum, you need the latter, rather than using the phone's mic.

I won't be surprised if somebody comes up with a hack to enable the built in ANC when using headsets on music apps.

 

[DarwinOSX]

Everything is going to USB-C/TB 3. It’s a great port. Companies will have to adapt their products to use it.

 

[Andreeww]

Are there any good hifi usb c dac? So far I only found Hifime Android DAC (ES9018K2M+SA9023). Is this one good?

 

[DarwinOSX]

I was reading something about USB-C making it possible to turn regular headphones into noise cancelling ones and things like that. But my point is more practical. If MacBooks only have USB-C ports, then I'd like to see DACs, amps, and headphones tailor made for it.

USB-C and USB 3.0 won't matter as they won't decrease the latency. The USB 2.0 bit-rate is already high enough for multiple i/o channels of audio. More power won't really matter either as better thought out devices are mains powered from the wall or have the option of mains power like the Steinberg and Grace units, which tend to work better than say the cheapo Focusrites and random dongles that are solely USB bus powered. Basically you're not going to see USB 3.0 or C grade only DACs/interfaces as it has no real benefit and only cuts off potential customers.
What is very promising though is Thunderbolt due to the lowest latency since Firewire and having it's own bus. Too bad it's expensive to implement and only higher end pro gear from Apogee, Lynx, RME, and Focusrite (cheapest is Focusrite Claret 2 at around $500ish) have it. It could become the new Firewire if Apple doesn't drop it as higher end business grade and multimedia laptops are including it.

A lot of people don't realize that Thunderbolt is not an Apple technology it is from Intel and they collect royalties on it's use not Apple.
Apple is a prime driver though, and did work with Intel on it, and many laptops are showing up with t least one USB-C port. I would expect that to continue and expand.
By the way Mac USB-C ports are also Thunderbolt 3 ports.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207266

USB-C is also not a shared-bus system. Instead it uses a point-to-point link between the host and each device (With USB 2.0, the 125 us polling interval was critical to how the bus was time-division multiplexed between devices. However, because 3.0 uses point-to-point links, there is no multiplexing to be done and thus the polling interval no longer exists. As a result, the latency on packet delivery is much less than with USB 2.0 especially when' used within an operating system which on a computer a Dac connects to. That's a really good reason to have USB-C Dac's right there because of the computer interface to operating system latency.
Another good reason is USB-C provides way more power, at least twice as much, and who wouldn't like their Dac to have more power? It one of the issues with usb powered Dacs right now.
I'm also sure a use for audio will be found for the much greater bandwidth of USB-C. It alway is.

USB-C has nothing to do with noise canceling. Not sure where you got that from. The way noise canceling works is a microphone that picks up ambient noise and the electronics in the headphone create a noise canceling wave 180 degrees out of phase with the ambient noise. This is all in hardware and cannot be done in software.
There are headphones and noise canceling headphones that can connect to USB-C for power and to transfer audio but the USB-C port has nothing to do with the noise canceling. That has to be in the headphone electronics.
Yes some smartphones employ a rudimentary version of this but it's not very good and nowhere near as good as noise cancelling headphones. iPhones do it too not just android.
Passive noise canceling is just the headphone blocking sound from your ear by it's seal but that also has nothing to do with USB-C it's more noise muffling than noise canceling anyway..

 

[Brahmsian]

A lot of people don't realize that Thunderbolt is not an Apple technology it is from Intel and they collect royalties on it's use not Apple.
Apple is a prime driver though, and did work with Intel on it, and many laptops are showing up with t least one USB-C port. I would expect that to continue and expand.
By the way Mac USB-C ports are also Thunderbolt 3 ports.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207266

USB-C is also not a shared-bus system. Instead it uses a point-to-point link between the host and each device (With USB 2.0, the 125 us polling interval was critical to how the bus was time-division multiplexed between devices. However, because 3.0 uses point-to-point links, there is no multiplexing to be done and thus the polling interval no longer exists. As a result, the latency on packet delivery is much less than with USB 2.0 especially when' used within an operating system which on a computer a Dac connects to. That's a really good reason to have USB-C Dac's right there because of the computer interface to operating system latency.
Another good reason is USB-C provides way more power, at least twice as much, and who wouldn't like their Dac to have more power? It one of the issues with usb powered Dacs right now.
I'm also sure a use for audio will be found for the much greater bandwidth of USB-C. It alway is.

USB-C has nothing to do with noise canceling. Not sure where you got that from. The way noise canceling works is a microphone that picks up ambient noise and the electronics in the headphone create a noise canceling wave 180 degrees out of phase with the ambient noise. This is all in hardware and cannot be done in software.
There are headphones and noise canceling headphones that can connect to USB-C for power and to transfer audio but the USB-C port has nothing to do with the noise canceling. That has to be in the headphone electronics.
Yes some smartphones employ a rudimentary version of this but it's not very good and nowhere near as good as noise cancelling headphones. iPhones do it too not just android.
Passive noise canceling is just the headphone blocking sound from your ear by it's seal but that also has nothing to do with USB-C it's more noise muffling than noise canceling anyway..

I read the stuff about noise cancelling in some article. If I recall correctly, it was that USB-C could be used to turn regular headphones into noise cancelling ones. How, I don’t recall.

In any case, on paper, what Psalmanazar said about USB 2.0 is true according to my understanding but in practice the USB 2.0 port on my old MacBook gave me all sorts of audio problems (mostly distortion). Once I switched to USB-C/Thunderbolt 3, those problems disappeared, though oddly enough I’m still using a DAC that takes USB 2.0, I’m just using it with an adapter.

At the very least, having audio devices switch to C will allow us to stop using adapters.

 

[bagwell359]

withdrawn