[ProtegeManiac]

I typically prefer to stay within healthy listening levels.
The SQ to my ears was very good, and not that easy to tell apart from my main rig, which by the time I had the HD600 was a very nice Bifrost (4490) / Asgard 2 setup.
Not to say they sounded exactly the same, to my ears the BF/ASG2 combo was still slightly ahead the E10K as expected.

As long as the amp can handle the required voltage swing, it will drive the high impedance load just fine. (SQ will depend on other factors, that's granted)
Most smartphones for instance can't reach 1 Vrms, some of them can't even reach 0.7 Vrms.

This type of devices have been getting better and better in the last decade. I had the FiiO E07K (2013) which was a clear step up from the FiiO E7 (2010) it replaced.
Then I got the FiiO E10 which sounded significantly better than the E07K. The difference was easy to hear, E10 was cleaner and more transparent.
When E10K was introduced I though it would sound pretty much the same as the E10, but it's indeed more resolving in the upper registers and has a slightly less dry tonality which is welcome.

100dB/mW vs 97dB/mW means he'll need 2 times the power to drive the HD600 vs MSR7.
For normal use (healthy loud) he will need up to 10mW for HD600 and only 5mW for MSR7
E10K can handle those requirements with extra room.

Smartphones are capable of only 2mW - 3mW into 300 Ohm load, that surely plays a role.
But anyway HD600 can and should sound great with 2mW (if you decide to listen to music at those levels)
The main reason resolving headphones like HD600 don't sound great plugged on smartphones is that smartphones don't sound great.
That plays indeed a bigger role than available power. Smartphones aren't designed with high fidelity audio reproduction in mind.
You can use a Moto G to feed an Auralic Taurus MK2, and despite the huge power reserve, the combo will still sound pretty bad.

HD600 is not known for having a particularly "lively" sound signature, while MSR7 can be labelled as more lively in the big scheme of things (more extended bass and more treble sparkle).

I would pick the HD600 over MSR7 anyday, as I appreciate what it does (and not many headphones do)
But as I've said before, I think something like the AKG K712 PRO (or DT1990 PRO) should be closer to an "open MSR7" than the HD600.

Yes but I'd still caution him precisely because chances are people "upgrading" tend to expect something that "sounds more like real music," and for people who need that - ie, a more lively sound - going from an higher sensitivity headphone to one that requires double the power or so without upgrading to a more powerful amp would tend to come back and complain that whatever they have wasn't an upgrade because it sounds boring.

And no my HD600 doesn't sound boring, but that's also because I listen in short bursts toeing the line towards "slow descent into hearing damage." Which is also why I did add the qualification to him - as did you - that if he listens at very low volume it won't be a problem. But I also note that if he listens fairly loud on the MSR7, chances are he'll find the HD600 boring, more so than due to its frequency response curve.

In any case it's not like I'm literally right in front of him to stop him, only that if it turns out I'm wrong, then at least he's enjoying it; but if it turns out I'm right, well, I'm just making it clear that I put up enough a number of concerns about his planned move.

 

[honeybee123]

Yes but I'd still caution him precisely because chances are people "upgrading" tend to expect something that "sounds more like real music," and for people who need that - ie, a more lively sound - going from an higher sensitivity headphone to one that requires double the power or so without upgrading to a more powerful amp would tend to come back and complain that whatever they have wasn't an upgrade because it sounds boring.

And no my HD600 doesn't sound boring, but that's also because I listen in short bursts toeing the line towards "slow descent into hearing damage." Which is also why I did add the qualification to him - as did you - that if he listens at very low volume it won't be a problem. But I also note that if he listens fairly loud on the MSR7, chances are he'll find the HD600 boring, more so than due to its frequency response curve.

In any case it's not like I'm literally right in front of him to stop him, only that if it turns out I'm wrong, then at least he's enjoying it; but if it turns out I'm right, well, I'm just making it clear that I put up enough a number of concerns about his planned move.

Oh sorry should have told you about my volume level more, my windows later volume is set to 15% and fiio e10k is set to level 5 on low gain. I could say that it's pretty loud for me. Usually when I listen to music in Spotify, my Spotify volume level is set to 50% too

Sorry that I couldn't answer to you earlier, had quiet a week this time. But thanks for your input

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Oh sorry should have told you about my volume level more, my windows later volume is set to 15% and fiio e10k is set to level 5 on low gain. I could say that it's pretty loud for me. Usually when I listen to music in Spotify, my Spotify volume level is set to 50% too

Sorry that I couldn't answer to you earlier, had quiet a week this time. But thanks for your input

You're supposed to have Windows at 100% and then just use the volume control on the amp. Using Windows volume control dropped down to 15% can still reduce the bit depth even on Win10, considering how low that is. (Also, what's "level 5"? E10K has a dial - do you mean 12:00 on the dial, ie 5/10?)

In any case if you're listening that low on the MSR7, chances are even with the higher power requirements of the HD600 you're not going to be listening at levels that would stress the amp. Note that I'm stressing "chances are" since you still have its different tonal balance as its open back design, ie, since there's going to be a fair bit more ambient noise getting in the way of the bass, you'd likely crank it up a bit more than on the MSR7. No guarantees either way but with this cleared up it's likely you might not have any real problem driving the HD600, and in case you don't like the sound, it's just the response curve; so in case you don't, no need to try other amps, just try another headphone.

 

[honeybee123]

You're supposed to have Windows at 100% and then just use the volume control on the amp. Using Windows volume control dropped down to 15% can still reduce the bit depth even on Win10, considering how low that is. (Also, what's "level 5"? E10K has a dial - do you mean 12:00 on the dial, ie 5/10?)

In any case if you're listening that low on the MSR7, chances are even with the higher power requirements of the HD600 you're not going to be listening at levels that would stress the amp. Note that I'm stressing "chances are" since you still have its different tonal balance as its open back design, ie, since there's going to be a fair bit more ambient noise getting in the way of the bass, you'd likely crank it up a bit more than on the MSR7. No guarantees either way but with this cleared up it's likely you might not have any real problem driving the HD600, and in case you don't like the sound, it's just the response curve; so in case you don't, no need to try other amps, just try another headphone.

Dial has 1-8 levels. But thing is when I put windows on 100% my listening volume level on fiio would be level 1 which is already very loud and it feels like they are underpowered on level 1

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Dial has 1-8 levels. But thing is when I put windows on 100% my listening volume level on fiio would be level 1 which is already very loud and it feels like they are underpowered on level 1

What exactly do you mean by "very loud...(but)...feels underpowered?" If it gets loud easily, never mind the gain, that is typically an indicator (though again not absolute, ie, in cases like the Rega Ear, it's just obscenely high gain) that the amp isn't struggling. It's like having a very light chassis like a KTM X-Bow compared to a Toyota Camry if both were powered by the same 2.4L engine. Hitting 60mph on second gear in 3.5 seconds isn't going to be taken by anyone as "underpowered," but as when gear ratio is compared to gain, having to lose a second shifting to third because the engine revs too high on first at launch then runs out of revs on second so you end up hitting 60mph in 4.5seconds can be a problem.

 

[honeybee123]

What exactly do you mean by "very loud...(but)...feels underpowered?" If it gets loud easily, never mind the gain, that is typically an indicator (though again not absolute, ie, in cases like the Rega Ear, it's just obscenely high gain) that the amp isn't struggling. It's like having a very light chassis like a KTM X-Bow compared to a Toyota Camry if both were powered by the same 2.4L engine. Hitting 60mph on second gear in 3.5 seconds isn't going to be taken by anyone as "underpowered," but as when gear ratio is compared to gain, having to lose a second shifting to third because the engine revs too high on first at launch then runs out of revs on second so you end up hitting 60mph in 4.5seconds can be a problem.

I mean that when my fiio was on level 1 out of 8 it felt like left cup was louder than right, but when i went to level 5 out of 8 it felt like they were about the same volume level. Might be a placebo effect but after that i started using fiio on level 5 and set windows master level to 15%

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I mean that when my fiio was on level 1 out of 8 it felt like left cup was louder than right, but when i went to level 5 out of 8 it felt like they were about the same volume level. Might be a placebo effect but after that i started using fiio on level 5 and set windows master level to 15%

That's not "underpowered" - it's not like it only had enough power for one driver. What that is is the analogue potentiometer having a natural imbalance at very low setting. All analogue pots have this problem, just not to the same severity, ie why even at 8:00 position on the dial on a Meier Cantate.2 for example (regardless of gain setting) is already even and before that the uneven output is not immediately obvious.

 

[honeybee123]

That's not "underpowered" - it's not like it only had enough power for one driver. What that is is the analogue potentiometer having a natural imbalance at very low setting. All analogue pots have this problem, just not to the same severity, ie why even at 8:00 position on the dial on a Meier Cantate.2 for example (regardless of gain setting) is already even and before that the uneven output is not immediately obvious.

Oh i see, thanks for clearing that up for me

 

[Me x3]

That's not "underpowered" - it's not like it only had enough power for one driver. What that is is the analogue potentiometer having a natural imbalance at very low setting. All analogue pots have this problem, just not to the same severity

This is spot on.

Newer devices like Q1 Mark II employ a nice ADC mechanism to reconstruct the potentiometers analog curve and get rid of those natural problems of strictly analog volume adjustments.

I guess in that case it's fine to set the computer at a lower level if needed (very sensitive headphones like MSR7)
With headphones that are harder to drive you'll be able to set everything at 100% on the computer and then set the volume from the E10K for optimum performance.

 

[jacknson123]

You are going to notice a big change in audio quality, but that is not really an upgrade it is just different. If you want something similar to msr7 but better, go for k712 pro or entry level stax like l300.

 

[honeybee123]

You are going to notice a big change in audio quality, but that is not really an upgrade it is just different. If you want something similar to msr7 but better, go for k712 pro or entry level stax like l300.

I mean stax is 2 times more expensive than hd600, but I might go for k712pro not sure yet, they are not that cheap as well here

 

[jacknson123]

I mean stax is 2 times more expensive than hd600, but I might go for k712pro not sure yet, they are not that cheap as well here

k712 is now 340 dollar in na, just 50 bucks more than hd600.
To my ear, msr7 is precise and detail enough in its price range, I dont think there's worthy upgrade in the 300 dollar range. You might as well save up more money before you upgrade your msr7 unless you dont like its sound signature.

 

[honeybee123]

k712 is now 340 dollar in na, just 50 bucks more than hd600.
To my ear, msr7 is precise and detail enough in its price range, I dont think there's worthy upgrade in the 300 dollar range. You might as well save up more money before you upgrade your msr7 unless you dont like its sound signature.

Found AKG's in my country for 300 euros, which is 30 euros more than sennheiser's. I'll look into it's specs more and see what's up with em in general

 

[honeybee123]

This is spot on.

Newer devices like Q1 Mark II employ a nice ADC mechanism to reconstruct the potentiometers analog curve and get rid of those natural problems of strictly analog volume adjustments.

I guess in that case it's fine to set the computer at a lower level if needed (very sensitive headphones like MSR7)
With headphones that are harder to drive you'll be able to set everything at 100% on the computer and then set the volume from the E10K for optimum performance.

I looked at some sites, and found AKG k712pro for just 235 euros instead of 299 euros so I could get those instead. Interesting how HD600 costs 329 euros there while AKG's only cost 235 euros. Also in the title of headphones they added reference speakers, no idea what it exactly means, are you able to clear that one up for me? Or should I send a msg to the support?

EDIT: just asked my friend, he just said that they have big stock of the headphones and thats why they are that low.
But yeah looks like i can easily get AKG k712 Pro and would pay ~50 euros less (HD600 costs 278+delivery)