[Royal Amethyst]

So, I've been replacing my entire music library with FLACs and higher bitrate MP3s lately. I don't really consider myself an audiophile, but I can often tell the difference between a 320kbps MP3 and a lossless FLAC file even with my existing setup, so I figure I should treat myself to an audio upgrade. I know you all probably get this a loooot, but I'm looking for opinions on good, newer sound cards that will last me for a very, very long time.
 
What I have:

1. Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer PCI card
2. Logitech X-540 surround sound speakers
3. Sennheiser HD 202 closed-air headphones

 
What I want:

1. A new sound card that can process sound with higher fidelity which will require:

• The ability to process all types of music genres gorgeously, from MP3 to AAC to OGG to FLAC to whatever.
• The ability to play video game sound, EAX not necessary, but OpenAL to replace it would be highly preferred.
• The ability to process Blu-Ray sound, which I believe uses Dolby TrueHD?

1. A significant upgrade from my Sennheiser HD 202's. Been looking at the HD 448 and the HD 518, as well as the Audio Technica ATH-A700. I want something that will be more than just a step or two up, and will last a long time. Prefer closed back unless you can convince me otherwise.
2. Not planning up upgrading my X-540 even though I know they're far from superior quality, but if you want to give suggestions, I'm all ears.

 
What I know/have heard:

1. Absolutely nobody here will recommend a Creative card because they're mainstream and therefore crap, though no one will admit thinking like that
2. Auzentech, Xonar, and HT | Omega cards are what people like to recommend
3. Auzentech cards are good and often affordable, but hard to come by, and I have seen several people complain of cards dying after a few months to a year, with horrible customer service
4. Xonar cards cannot natively decode Blu-Ray audio standards at this time, though offer OpenAL and other Dolby API features.
5. HT | Omega cards have DirectSound which can only emulate OpenAL or EAX, which it lacks natively, but is otherwise known for having good I/O ports

 
Your thoughts and opinions would be highly appreciated. I've been looking around and only running in circles trying to resolve conflicting reviews and information, and have found no viable solution to the music/blu-ray/video game support triangle contradictions and conundrums. I'd like to keep it on a non-audiophile budget, too. I don't have $300 to throw on a pair of headphones alone or anything.
 
Thanks again!

 

[NamelessPFG]

Alright, let me clarify some things first:
 
-DirectSound3D and OpenAL are sound APIs used in games. EAX extensions are part of both. The reason people think EAX no longer works in Vista/Win7 is that the revised sound stack got rid of DirectSound3D, but OpenAL is unaffected. This is why wrappers like Creative's ALchemy and GX2.5 on the C-Media cards even work in the first place; they translate the old DirectSound3D calls to OpenAL. Creative-based cards naturally have the edge in this department, since they can process OpenAL calls in hardware, on the sound card's DSP, and the sound drivers have access to the 3D sound buffer itself, not to mention that only they have genuine EAX 3/4/5.
 
-A lot of newer games have software audio engines that downmix everything to 7.1 at most and stereo at least before it even hits the sound card driver. This means that Creative loses a lot of their advantage...and most regrettably, sound is more 2D compared to how it used to be under the DS3D/OAL model of the game engine telling the sound card driver where each sound source is located in 3D space and letting the sound card decide where and how to play back those sounds. (Compare CMSS-3D Headphone, as found on X-Fi cards, and Dolby Headphone, as found on C-Media cards, in a DirectSound3D or OpenAL game, and the positioning isn't even close. CMSS-3D has a ridiculous advantage. Otherwise, in games with software audio, it performs roughly on par with DH for obvious reasons.)
 
-Wouldn't Blu-ray HD audio tracks be decoded in software by the player before it even hits the sound card driver, unless they're being bitstreamed to an external A/V receiver that can decode them, which results in the sound card being totally bypassed? Seems like a moot point to me.
 
Now, on to possible recommendations:
 
-I would normally recommend finding that S/PDIF adapter for the XtremeGamer and feeding an external DAC with it, but that only benefits your headphone setup, not your X-540 speaker system.
 
-Creative does make a very well-regarded card in the form of the X-Fi Titanium HD, but it's unsuitable for the X-540 because it only has two analog output channels. (This doesn't bother me because I only use headphones.)
 
-Auzentech makes several different products. They started out as another C-Media sound card manufacturer, but eventually got the rights to Creative's X-Fi DSP later on and started making cards with those. An X-Fi Prelude or X-Fi Forte would serve you well, but in the case of the latter card, try to make sure it's from a later batch with a heatsink on the EMU20k2 DSP. Less chance of problems that way. As for the Prelude...it's discontinued and an old PCI card that you might have trouble fitting into motherboards years from now, but I've had one for four years and it continues to serve me well, with no hardware faults.

 

[Royal Amethyst]

Well, first, thanks for all the helpful information. And I would prefer to get a somewhat newer card instead of some released years ago, if possible. Difficult, I know, since I think the only manufacturer to come out with anything recently is Creative with their Recon3D cards. Also, if I do upgrade from the XtremeGamer, I don't want just an incremental upgrade, I want something vastly superior in sound quality, if possible.
 
Thanks again!

 

[Royal Amethyst]

Well, I just purchased a pair of Sennheiser HD 598's. So now I'm looking for a sound card to properly drive them. I kind of want the Xonar Essence STX, since it seems to be the best non-Creative card for people who want both music and games, however, it seems to be a headphone-only card with only RCA and headphone jacks (no three 3.5" jacks for my X-540). I don't want to give up on my speaker system yet, either. So I should probably put that in my requirements. A card with analog 3.5" jacks for my surround sound speaker system that would drive my headphones and X-540 really well in both music and games. OpenAL still preferred.

 

[germanium]

I like the Xonar Stx myself. I feel that even stok it has a surerior sound to anything that creative labs has done in the past & even will out do the Titanium HD card stock  Even though the titatium HD has the same potential sound as the Xonar Esense series cards it would take more to modify it to bring it to the same level as what the STX is capable of. There are a large number of solid electrolytic coupling caps on that board that are not needed & only mess with the sound. The Xonar STX only has 2 coupling caps that are much easier to get rid of & they use through hole capacitor mounting which makes it easier to do power supply mods which it responds to very favorably. That is not to say the Titanium HD doesn't have anything over the Xonar but I have had reliability issues with Creatives cards & none with Asuses cards
 
If you do modify any of these cards do not remove and/or bypass any of the coupling caps on the input side leading to the ADC as those are absolutely needed. None of the coupling caps on the DAC side are needed & they really muck with the sound.
 

 

[NamelessPFG]

I can't say I've had any major reliability issues with the three X-Fi cards I've used. It could just be dumb luck for all I know. Given all I've heard about every brand of sound card on the Internet, it's like some sort of rule that the drivers have to suck for some people.
 
As for sound, I'm in no position to compare the Essence STX with my X-Fi Titanium HD (unless someone would kindly lend me the STX for testing and review), but I do know that if you're playing a game that uses DirectSound3D or OpenAL, CMSS-3D Headphone curbstomps Dolby Headphone in positioning terms, as tested with my SU-DH1 fed via Titanium HD with Dolby Digital Live. Not a surprise when one uses the 3D sound coordinates in the game environment itself while the other emulates a mere 7.1 speaker system.
 
That alone gives the Titanium HD (well, any card with the X-Fi DSP) a gaming edge in addition to hardware-processed OpenAL and genuine EAX 5 and all, though it's admittedly become less of a concern due to people only caring about newer releases that eschew OpenAL for software audio engines (with worse positioning, if you ask me).
 
However, there is a way to take the sound card's analog circuitry out of the question and preserve its DSP features: use an external DAC with S/PDIF input. Then, provided you keep all the sound card DSP features off, they should all sound pretty much identical with the same DAC. Too bad such DACs are hideously expensive, for one that can actually surpass a top-tier card...

 

[Royal Amethyst]

I don't really want to have to buy any external things since I want to trim the fat and keep things relatively internal. So I figure a sound card with good sound with an amp built-in is a good compromise. But I still need one with the 3.5" analog inputs for my X-540 surround sound. I'd just get an adapter for the other sound cards that don't have it, but apparently doing so will bypass any of the sound cards' special sound processing abilities, which would make the upgrade meaningless for the X-540s. So many conundrums.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Asus Xonar DX.
Does not come with a dedicated headphone amplifier, but powered my Beyer DT770 Pro 80-Ohm headphones just fine. The Sennheiser HD-598 is 50-Ohms.
The DX uses the some audio processor as the Essence STX (C-Media Oxygen CMI8788) and comes with Dolby Digital (Dolby Headphone surround sound)
Also has analog 7.1, 5.1, 2.1, and 2.0 speaker output.
You can plug the speakers into the back panel and headphones into the front audio jack on the front of your computer.
About $66 after mail in rebate.

 

[Royal Amethyst]

The problem with that is that the Xonar DX doesn't seem to be a huge step up from my XtremeGamer. Right now I'm looking strongly at Titanium HD (which I know doesn't have my analog ports, but still!) and the Titanium Fatal1ty Pro (which does have analog). I would go for the HT Omega Claro Plus, but from what I've read: "The range is only 40Hz to 15kHz, so you won't have as low of lows or as high of highs." That's well inside the range of human hearing, which just seems unacceptable.

 

[Royal Amethyst]

Alright after a bit more thought and research I have a few more questions and thoughts to organize here. I'm now thinking about two sound card options:
 
ASUS Xonar Essence STX: About $180 on Amazon, it's apparently an amazing sound card for driving headphones and 2.1 audio through its RCA and 6.3mm jacks. Up to 7.1 through the optical port. Built-in amp makes sound quality even better. Could get a DAC to plug into the optical port and plug my three 3.5mm jacks from my 5.1 system in.
 
Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD: This card is $99 refurbished on Amazon right now. Also an amazing sound card, but (from what I've heard) lacks any built-in amp, which may not be necessary (but still, a pretty bauble. It would FEEL like it sounded better, ha!) Only has a 3.5mm jack for headphones, and two sets of RCA jacks. No digital out, so hooking up my 5.1 system through a DAC would be impossible.
 
So it's basically a toss-up between the best card that has a built-in amp and  could plug a DAC into so I could use my X-540 for $180, or a card that is also very good with (likely) no built-in amp, and no way (that I can tell) to use my X-540 at this time for only $99. Thoughts?
 
Also, would using a DAC to plug the three 3.5mm jacks into the optical/digital port in a sound card reduce the quality of the sound output in any way (besides the obvious limitations of analog jacks). In other words, would there be conversion distortion that would make the great new sound card no longer worth the effort?

 

[weez82]

Quote:

Alright after a bit more thought and research I have a few more questions and thoughts to organize here. I'm now thinking about two sound card options:
 
ASUS Xonar Essence STX: About $180 on Amazon, it's apparently an amazing sound card for driving headphones and 2.1 audio through its RCA and 6.3mm jacks. Up to 7.1 through the optical port. Built-in amp makes sound quality even better. Could get a DAC to plug into the optical port and plug my three 3.5mm jacks from my 5.1 system in.
 
Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD: This card is $99 refurbished on Amazon right now. Also an amazing sound card, but (from what I've heard) lacks any built-in amp, which may not be necessary (but still, a pretty bauble. It would FEEL like it sounded better, ha!) Only has a 3.5mm jack for headphones, and two sets of RCA jacks. No digital out, so hooking up my 5.1 system through a DAC would be impossible.
 
So it's basically a toss-up between the best card that has a built-in amp and  could plug a DAC into so I could use my X-540 for $180, or a card that is also very good with (likely) no built-in amp, and no way (that I can tell) to use my X-540 at this time for only $99. Thoughts?
 
Also, would using a DAC to plug the three 3.5mm jacks into the optical/digital port in a sound card reduce the quality of the sound output in any way (besides the obvious limitations of analog jacks). In other words, would there be conversion distortion that would make the great new sound card no longer worth the effort?

the X-Fi has optical out. If you look at the specs or look at the manuals (a good idea before buying something) you'll see that it comes with an adapter for optical out. Unfortunately thats all I can comment on. Im still too new to hi-end PC audio. I just got a X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion and am loving it for gaming and music. Im using HD 595's

 

[keithc]

Does your computer already have an existing digital out without adding an audio card?

 

[Royal Amethyst]

weez82, you're absolutely correct! Shame on me for not looking closely enough at the Titanium HD's specs.

 
As you can see above, the line in and optical out look a LOT like the red and white RCA connectors. I originally mistook them as such, thinking therefore that they were only stereo out. But hey, if it's an optical out, that means I can get a DAC and plug my X-540 analog jacks in, right? And that still leaves the question of whether or not there is sound degradation from plugging the analog jacks into a converter and then into the optical port. Also whether doing so removes some of the snazzy things the Titanium HD can do for sound out the optical port.
 
 
Quote:

Does your computer already have an existing digital out without adding an audio card?

 
Yes, built into the motherboard, SPDIF and optical, but won't that only work for the integrated audio? Besides, the problem is that my 5.1 speaker system uses three 3.5mm analog jacks, which no high-end sound card worth buying seems to have. Just optical ports for surround sound, which would require a device with optical support, or a DAC to convert, right?
 
The XtremeGamer that I'm replacing is as thus:

EDIT: I just noticed I can get a Xonar DG for $17 after mail-in rebate on Amazon right now. This... with its built-in amp... is a strong contender right now.

 

[Royal Amethyst]

Does nobody have any more thoughts or opinions?
 
To re-iterate: The Xonar DG may be an incremental, inexpensive sound upgrade with a headphone amp for about $18, the Xonar Essence STX is what I really want, but it's about $180 and would require a DAC for my 5.1 surround sound system. The Titanium HD would be somewhat cheaper, but without an amp and doesn't have a nice 6.3mm jack for my headphones (came with a 3.5mmm adapter, but I'd prefer to go straight native 6.3mm anyway). Any other thoughts?

 

[NamelessPFG]

Just for the record, all analog audio outputs are amplified. It's how they're amplified that's the question. What kind of amplifier circuit would be more or less suitable for headphones, anyway? Besides, it depends on the headphones. Do you match the amp to the headphones, or the headphones to the amp?
 
If you're that worried about it, you can get an external headphone amp and feed it with those RCA line outs, not that you'll need one for any reasonably sensitive dynamic headphone. You can get a FiiO E9 for $80-90 right now.
 
Oh, and regarding the DAC question about reducing sound quality, I would think that sound quality would be INCREASED if the external DAC is good enough.