Understanding external DAC's and amp's. - Newbie help

[Beunhaas]

Hi everyone,

Newbie here, I just got a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro's and I want to understand what an external DAC and amp might do and not do.

I currently have have my headphones plugged into my onboard audio of my PC (MSI X99s SLI PRO motherboard ALC892 Realtek Codec). Now I'm wondering whether an external dedicated DAC/amp combo might benefit me.

If I crank up the volume a bit, the headset sounds great. Pretty much exactly the sound I was going for. However when I lower the volume, it becomes quite difficult to pick out different instruments and sometimes even what the vocalist is saying. It feels like the speakers are covered or something (muffled?).
Would an external amp (and DAC perhaps) in this case be beneficial? Would that bring back the vibrancy (transparency?) on lower volume levels?
I also do hear a little buzz when the audio get's pretty quiet, but that's not really bothersome to be honest.

I have never used an external amp before, so I have no clue what they can or cannot do. I have been reading a lot about them these past days but it's still quite confusing.
I also tried my dad's Yamaha DSP-AX1 AV Amplifier, but my guess is the headphone plug on that amp is nothing special and won't really make much of a difference. (I personally did not hear a difference when I plugged the headphones into his amp).

Any insight is much appreciated.

Regarding amp's and DAC's I am looking at. I often came across the Schiit Audio Magni and Modi. Those are the one's I'd probably also be getting if I do end up getting an amp and DAC. My only question being, would the Magni / Modi introduce any delays in the audio?
I do play games and I would like to be able to pick out the details of the sounds I'm hearing (on lower volumes as well) and most importantly, 'without' delays. I imagine anything in the audio chain will introduce at least some delay, but I'd like to keep it as low as possible.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

I'm not going to even try to type out a reply, sorry.

But as a Newbie (kind of) myself, I spend loads of time on Youtube with some Audiophile Channels that are an incredible wealth of HiFi knowledge...as is this site if you have the time to search and read??

Try these guys for starters: -

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR4tuhqPppVp-PD0q17sPEA

https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnHDarko

https://www.youtube.com/c/JoshuaValour

https://www.youtube.com/c/Currawong

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMADmrBg2mMall8bpC4anQQ

Personally, I really like John Darko!

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

add Steve to that list aslo ^^

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9wBmplRUhaCi-aNrkfgeTg

 

[Paul Mohr]

I just wrote an article about this very thing the other day and posted it in the "headphone amp" section of the forums.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/asgard-3-impressions-from-a-broke-audiophile.959458/

It is a long read but it might be what you are looking for. I tested 5 different headphones on 4 different amps. In different price ranges and types. From onboard computer audio, a usb interface, a denon receiver and then the Asgard 3/modi 3+ dac and amp. I listened to each set up for an hour or so with a playlist I made and then took notes on my impressions of how they sounded and how each set differed from the other.

I was in the same boat as you, I had never had a real external amp before and took a gamble and got one. So I figured other people would be interested in how it went and if I thought it was worth it.

Happy reading.

 

[JackRabbitSlims]

I just wrote an article about this very thing the other day and posted it in the "headphone amp" section of the forums.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/asgard-3-impressions-from-a-broke-audiophile.959458/

It is a long read but it might be what you are looking for. I tested 5 different headphones on 4 different amps. In different price ranges and types. From onboard computer audio, a usb interface, a denon receiver and then the Asgard 3/modi 3+ dac and amp. I listened to each set up for an hour or so with a playlist I made and then took notes on my impressions of how they sounded and how each set differed from the other.

I was in the same boat as you, I had never had a real external amp before and took a gamble and got one. So I figured other people would be interested in how it went and if I thought it was worth it.

Happy reading.

Nice Work Paul!!

I'm gonna take a read of that for sure.

 

[Monsterzero]

Think of a DAC as an external stereo soundcard. What you will get from a good DAC:

more texture
better separation
better and possibly bigger imaging
darker/blacker background which improves dynamics on better DACs

An amp amplifies the sound. Often what you will get from a good amp is:

tighter and more prominent bass response
tighter imaging
better and more holographic staging.
more headroom to blow out your eardrums.

Old vintage amps and receivers had a "loudness" button. It was intended to give more dynamics at low listening levels. Perhaps modern AVRs do too, but i havent checked.

When you read about a headphone that "scales well" that is referring to a headphone that sounds increasingly better as you improve your amp and DAC. The Sennheiser HD6xx is a classic example of that.

Unfortunately not all headphone scale well and sound pretty much the same regardless of the quality of your upstream gear. You would need to do your research on the DT1990 to find out whether or not its worth the $ to do so.

 

[Beunhaas]

I'm not going to even try to type out a reply, sorry.

But as a Newbie (kind of) myself, I spend loads of time on Youtube with some Audiophile Channels that are an incredible wealth of HiFi knowledge...as is this site if you have the time to search and read??

Try these guys for starters: -

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR4tuhqPppVp-PD0q17sPEA

https://www.youtube.com/c/JohnHDarko

https://www.youtube.com/c/JoshuaValour

https://www.youtube.com/c/Currawong

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMADmrBg2mMall8bpC4anQQ

Personally, I really like John Darko!

add Steve to that list aslo ^^

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9wBmplRUhaCi-aNrkfgeTg

Much appreciated! I have been watching Joshua Valour videos actually. He has some pretty good stuff. Not familiar with the other ones yet.

I just wrote an article about this very thing the other day and posted it in the "headphone amp" section of the forums.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/asgard-3-impressions-from-a-broke-audiophile.959458/

It is a long read but it might be what you are looking for. I tested 5 different headphones on 4 different amps. In different price ranges and types. From onboard computer audio, a usb interface, a denon receiver and then the Asgard 3/modi 3+ dac and amp. I listened to each set up for an hour or so with a playlist I made and then took notes on my impressions of how they sounded and how each set differed from the other.

I was in the same boat as you, I had never had a real external amp before and took a gamble and got one. So I figured other people would be interested in how it went and if I thought it was worth it.

Happy reading.

Oooh that sounds absolutely perfect. I will definitely be reading that! Thanks Paul!

Think of a DAC as an external stereo soundcard. What you will get from a good DAC:

more texture
better separation
better and possibly bigger imaging

An amp amplifies the sound. Often what you will get from a good amp is:

tighter and more prominent bass response
tighter imaging
better and more holographic staging.
more headroom to blow out your eardrums.

Old vintage amps and receivers had a "loudness" button. It was intended to give more dynamics at low listening levels. Perhaps modern AVRs do too, but i havent checked.

When you read about a headphone that "scales well" that is referring to a headphone that sounds increasingly better as you improve your amp and DAC. The Sennheiser HD6xx is a classic example of that.

Unfortunately not all headphone scale well and sound pretty much the same regardless of the quality of your upstream gear. You would need to do your research on the DT1990 to find out whether or not its worth the $ to do so.

Perhaps his amp does have a loudness button as well. It's about 27 years old at this point I reckon. Not user if that qualifies as vintage though haha.

I'm not sure if it scales well, but the general consensus is the DT1990 Pro definitely benefits from an amp and a DAC. For me it's just that I'm not aware of how an amp will alter the sound quality as I've never had an external amp. And the sound quality is already (in my opinion) really good. The only thing that's kind of bothering me is that I can really only use about 10% of the volume slider. (I'd say about between 60-70% volume) anything below 60% is just too quiet (and kind of muffled I feel). Anything above 70% is too loud.

But a few other people posted some, what seem, great information sources so I'll definitely be doing some more research these coming days.

 

[Monsterzero]

It's about 27 years old at this point I reckon. Not user if that qualifies as vintage though haha.

vintage in my usage suggests an amp that was built from the late 60s into the very early 80s. I wont get into it here, but if youre interested in learning more about using vintage receivers as headphone amps and why they outperform modern AVRs, check out my YouTube channel (link in my signature below).

At 250 ohms, the DT1990 would definitely benefit from an external amp. One of the biggest misconceptions in this hobby is that if the headphone gets loud, its being driven well. That is false. Loud doesnt necessarily mean being driven well.

 

[Paul Mohr]

I don't know much about your particular headphones and how much power they require but headphones work just like speakers. They just tiny speakers for the most part. If you under power them they will still make sound but if you give them enough power they sound much better. When you read my article you will see how this effects things when I tested the onboard audio on my computer.

As for the modi/magni and lag I don't think it will be a problem. I believe there is a thread on here somewhere, or another forum where Jason (the co founder of Schiit) tested it and it was pretty decent. That being said they make two devices specifically for gaming that are a dac/amp combo with mic inputs. I think they are the Fulla and the Hell?

I don't know enough about various headphone amp companies and various products to give suggestions or anything. Simply because I haven't tried them. I only have the two Schiit product and I just got them recently. What I can tell you is you will not be disappointed with the quality. These things are built FAR better than their price would suggest. I have a 700 dollar receiver that has worse build quality than schiits 99 dollar dac. They could have put this tiny little thing in a plastic box and called it a day. And it would sitll be worth the price. But they didn't. Its in a full metal box with a lovely finish that is flawless. I bet I could drop kick this thing across the room and it would be fine. I'm not going to, but it feel like it could handle it lol.

 

[Monsterzero]

I only have the two Schiit product

I have a Magni 3, a Modi and a Modi MB. I also have a dedicated tube based OTL headphone amp, and nine vintage receivers. I also have a tube based Lampizator DAC.

The Magni 3 sounds best with low impedance/ high sensitivity headphones. It doesnt drive my 600 ohm AKG K240 setetts well, not my K240 DF, nor my AKG K701,nor my Sennheiser HD250s, nor my ZMF Verites.

What it does drive well is my Fidelio X2, which again is a low impedance (32 ohms i believe) and high sensitivity (100, give or take) With my higher ohm headphones listed above, they sound lifeless, congested, and a collapsed stage thru the Magni 3.

Im not knocking Schiit, nor the Magni 3, its just that driving high impedance headphones wasnt what it was designed to do. They have better and more powerful amps in their lineup that is better suited for such duty.

 

[Beunhaas]

vintage in my usage suggests an amp that was built from the late 60s into the very early 80s. I wont get into it here, but if youre interested in learning more about using vintage receivers as headphone amps and why they outperform modern AVRs, check out my YouTube channel (link in my signature below).

At 250 ohms, the DT1990 would definitely benefit from an external amp. One of the biggest misconceptions in this hobby is that if the headphone gets loud, its being driven well. That is false. Loud doesnt necessarily mean being driven well.

I have a Magni 3, a Modi and a Modi MB. I also have a dedicated tube based OTL headphone amp, and nine vintage receivers. I also have a tube based Lampizator DAC.

The Magni 3 sounds best with low impedance/ high sensitivity headphones. It doesnt drive my 600 ohm AKG K240 setetts well, not my K240 DF, nor my AKG K701,nor my Sennheiser HD250s, nor my ZMF Verites.

What it does drive well is my Fidelio X2, which again is a low impedance (32 ohms i believe) and high sensitivity (100, give or take) With my higher ohm headphones listed above, they sound lifeless, congested, and a collapsed stage thru the Magni 3.

Im not knocking Schiit, nor the Magni 3, its just that driving high impedance headphones wasnt what it was designed to do. They have better and more powerful amps in their lineup that is better suited for such duty.

Gotcha, that's also kind of what confused me a quite a bit. Often I'd come across a statement stating, if the music is loud enough you won't really need an external amp.
I mean, that could also be because of where I'm getting my info, which has been mostly Reddit until now.

The part about the Magni 3 and Modi not driving high impedance headphones well is interesting. I suppose 250 ohms isn't as high as your 600 ohm AKG K240, but it close to the 300 ohm headphones you listed. So that might be something to take into consideration.

I don't know much about your particular headphones and how much power they require but headphones work just like speakers. They just tiny speakers for the most part. If you under power them they will still make sound but if you give them enough power they sound much better. When you read my article you will see how this effects things when I tested the onboard audio on my computer.

As for the modi/magni and lag I don't think it will be a problem. I believe there is a thread on here somewhere, or another forum where Jason (the co founder of Schiit) tested it and it was pretty decent. That being said they make two devices specifically for gaming that are a dac/amp combo with mic inputs. I think they are the Fulla and the Hell?

I don't know enough about various headphone amp companies and various products to give suggestions or anything. Simply because I haven't tried them. I only have the two Schiit product and I just got them recently. What I can tell you is you will not be disappointed with the quality. These things are built FAR better than their price would suggest. I have a 700 dollar receiver that has worse build quality than schiits 99 dollar dac. They could have put this tiny little thing in a plastic box and called it a day. And it would sitll be worth the price. But they didn't. Its in a full metal box with a lovely finish that is flawless. I bet I could drop kick this thing across the room and it would be fine. I'm not going to, but it feel like it could handle it lol.

I actually couldn't help myself and have read through your forum post, I want to say that parts of what you're describing I feel is what I am experiencing as well. (Looking specifically at the HiFiMAN headphones you have and your onboard motherboard / Asgard 3 notes.)

That's also the reason why I was looking at Schiit Audio. They seem to be making high quality products, for decent prices. And they look slick too.

 

[Paul Mohr]

I have the asgard 3 and sundaras and K371's, so 37 and 32 ohm headphones. Guess I am safe lol.

 

[earmonger]

I've been reading rave reviews like this one for the JDS Labs Atom, claiming it blows away the Schiit at the same price. Might be worth looking into if you're worried about the Magni being underpowered.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ents-of-new-jds-labs-atom-headphone-amp.5262/

(I have the Magni 3, which suits my Grados just fine. But note that while the little aluminum box looks very slick, the external power adapter is about half the size of that box, thicker, and it gets warm. Dunno if JDS also has an external transformer.)

 

[Monsterzero]

I suppose 250 ohms isn't as high as your 600 ohm AKG K240, but it close to the 300 ohm headphones you listed. So that might be something to take into consideration.

I have the asgard 3 and sundaras and K371's, so 37 and 32 ohm headphones. Guess I am safe lol.

250 ohms is considered high. Most will agree that headphones that exist between 250-600 ohms sound their best thru a powerful amp, and even better with tubes. Of course you have tube naysayers, but I digress.

Regarding planars:

While they usually have a low impedance, they require more current than dynamic headphones. The two most difficult to drive headphones ive ever heard are the Abyss 1266 (47 ohms) and the Hifiman HE6 (50 ohms), both of which are extremely current hungry planars.

Confused yet? Yeah I was too when I first got into the hobby.

Here is a fairly recent thread on the topic worth reading. As always proceed with a few grains of salt and read several sources on the topic before deciding yourself.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/pla...t-one-watt-of-power-to-drive-properly.805936/

 

[Paul Mohr]

Yes, that is something I noticed while running my little listening experience. While three of the headphones I tested were in the 32 to 40 ohm range they all performed a bit differently depending on what was driving them. While my K371's are 32 ohms they are very easy to drive and a phone will drive them beyond comfortable listening levels. The 114db sensitivity most likely doesn't hurt.

Sometime esle I noticed was with the Planar headphones. While my denon receiver had enough power to drive them fine and loud enough it always seemed like there was some missing or being left behind. When I ran them on the Asgard 3 I discovered this was true. Just because something has enough power to make the volume loud doesn't really mean it will sound its best. Same thing happened with the AKG's and the Bose in passive mode. The denon had plenty of volume to make them way louder than I would listen too for sure. However hooking them up to the Asgard was a completely different experience. In some cases it was like listening to entirely different headphones.

I could make a car analogy that might come close to explaining it. Consider speed to be equal to volume. You have two cars, one being a 1998 dodge neon and the other being a 1978 camaro with a built up 350 and 4:10 posi rear end. Both will do 120-130 mile an hour. The difference is the neon will take a mile or more to get there and will be rather boring doing it. The muscle car will do it in a quarter mile, snap your head back in the seat and be a much more fun experience. I always think of voltage and amps being fairly similar to horsepower and torque.